Does WDA still exist and putting on trials/shows? - Page 7

:-) @ bubba

You want an analogy it would be more appropriate to compare a torch to a wrench would you take out a torch to remove every single bolt on your engine. kind of overkill don't you think? Just like using a pinch collar and an e-collar for every situation.

No one said these tools are appropriate for every situation or even every dog. Your analogy serves only to underscore your ignorance of how they are effectively and humanely used and of effective training methodologies in general.

I’ve yet to hear from anyone that’s heavily involved in IPO and has dedicated a large portion of their life to it claim that it’s real. The only people that argue those points are newbies out of a few clubs that have a helper who is maybe a little more “old-school” and has convinced his membership that the way he trains dogs for IPO also makes them “real dogs.” Most helpers have moved on from that a long time ago and understand that most of the people they work with just want something to do with their dog and don’t actually want a PPD.

The funny thing about people that argue the point bubba keeps repeating is that they refuse to accept that even when you train a “real dog” you’re TRAINING. Most behaviors are taught. You do need a good dog with certain drives, but at the end, you’re still teaching the dog HOW to do things. For instance, tracking…you can either teach a dog foot step tracking for IPO or you can teach a dog trailing where they are allowed to air scent. You still have to teach the dog to follow a particular scent…it might look more natural than the IPO style foot step tracking…but it’s really not all that natural because a dog in nature will follow whatever scent is more interesting to them, not just the first scent they’ve been put on.

The whole liars and cheats thing is just someone who’s failed at the sport and needs someone else to blame for their own failures. No amount of lying and cheating would take down a truly gifted trainer and a great dog. If you’re just doing it for the titles…cheating shouldn’t matter to you at all. People cheat for points, and if all you care about is a title, then get out there and get your title. But those that cry and moan with these made up attacks are just doing it because deep down they do want to win, but just can’t. Bubba cries about this on every single IPO thread that has to do with the organizations. Never actually tells what happened or gives names of the people that have jaded him. Probably doesn’t actually have anything real to back up any of his claims.

Oh and rtd...those titles you bought in Germany...not sure if that counts as YOU titling your dogs.

...or if they're even real titles!  

" The only people pretending are the IPO groupies who pretend that IPO tracking is real tracking ( it is obedience ) and that IPO protection is real protection ( it too is obedience ). "

Bubba, this is plain nonsense, and you are intelligent enough to recognize it...

An "obedient" or "well trained" dog without nose is NOT able to track, and an "obedient" dog without drives is NOT able to function in bitework.

For anybody who doesn´t understand this - there are 100s of breeds out there, and there are douzends of breeds known to be very obedient, well known to learn fast and willingly, but almost all of these breeds ( and, please, don´t come up with the one and only dog out of thousands who is capable to do the IPO routine ) ARE NOT ABLE TO DO THE IPO ROUTINE!
Why? They don´t have the skills to do so!

And guess what - even within our beloved breed not every single dog is able to do this "simple" routine.
These dogs not able to achieve a IPO rating/breed survey are no bad dogs, but THEY ARE NOT BREEDWORTHY.
Once again - Why? Simply because drives and temperament are hereditable.

Are there untitled, but great specimens of our beloved breed out there? For sure, but HOW THE HECK WILL YOU KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT PROOF?
 

I don’t like insinuating that titles from Germany aren’t real, and without seeing the dog work I don’t know if they are or they aren’t…but just the idea of having to send your dog to someone else to title proves my point about those on the internet that are bashing IPO and claiming “real training” is more impressive. It’s not more impressive, its easier to train for when all you look for is pass/fail, dog bites or doesn’t, dog holds on or doesn’t, ect. IPO in a sense is still pass/fail just with a minimum score. And that minimum score isn’t all that difficult to get if you put in the time and work. But it’s funny, all the people that complain about IPO being all about competition, they’re just upset that their dogs are getting scores in the 70s can’t compete with those who are in the 90s. There’s no cheating involved there, it’s all about the dog and the training ability, but like I said before…easier to bash the sport than to develop the skills necessary to get your dog’s scores into the 90s.

"Titles from Germany are not real" - this makes me shiver.
Anybody who ever visited a normal SV/DVG or whatever kind of breeding/training club in my home country KNOWS that 99% of these titles are "real".
The so called "late night trials" are not the norm, but the total exception in my country - believe it or not.
SV even introduced kind of a "task force" ( uninvited observers ) to get rid of these single "black sheep".
As soon as money is involved, some people try to take advantage of it, but, once again, almost all of my landsmen, including me, are very proud of their dogs, their training, and their titles.

A totally different story are the "new owners" of titled dogs, who think dogs are machines, and have to work for them the same way they did for the former trainer, but are not even able to pronounce the German commands, don´t know how to move - that´s naive.
Every owner should know that a dog sent over here "for a title" will be good enough to pass on day X, but will not be good enough to participate on the Regionals - simple logic. We start to train our own dogs as 8 weeks old puppies, not as adults, what do you await? What are you willing to pay?

Susie,

Of course, you are correct that 99% of the titles earned in Germany are "real." The problem is that, generally speaking, the SL dogs we see with titles here who were shipped off to Germany for training and tiltlling come back in record time, with Sch/IPO 3....and have clearly never seen a blind or a dumbbell. I know of one that had no training, was sent to Germany for a month, and returned with a Sch 1. I looked at the dog's scorebook and lo, and behold, he "earned" that title on the 11th day he was in Germany. Some of the show folks over here, as a consequence of those Midnight Trials, have the misguided view that it should only take 3 months to take a dog from 0-2 and breed survey. You cannot tell them otherwise AND I have yet to get even one to take that Sch/IPO 3 KK1 dog on the field for just a Bh. Not asking the dog to do a schutzhund routine, not even track. Just a Bh. They don't dare do it, because in their heart of hearts they know full-well that the dog was not really trained and titled.

Exactly, Nia. I also agree that 99% of the titles are real but we have all seen examples of dogs that were sent off, come back with IPO 3's and then not only can't pass the bite work at a Sieger Show but don't even look like they know what they're expected to do. I always feel sorry for the dogs when I see this; it isn't their fault.