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by Prager on 14 December 2012 - 13:12
I would also like to state that the optimal dog is 50:50 = Prey: defense and with both instincts in about 5-8 in absolute numbers on scale from 1-10. Talking of protection.....
However every dog is at least little more prey or little more defense. Thus the method needs to be adjusted to it. Always go along with the dog and not against it. Always build on what the dog is good at and do not try to fix what the dog is not good at by forcing him into performing in such not as good ( realtively) drive or what ever. Always build on stronger instinct and when the dog reaches proper level, then channel into the other instinct . Back and forth.. If it is prey then build on prey . If it is defense - build on the defense.
The problem which I see is that dogs with higher defense then prey are being build on prey. That is because that is what sport dogs are 99% of the time - more prey and less or no defense and thus all methods there are to build dogs on prey. These methods are then carried into other-non sport systems of training as a panacea. If the dog is more defense and you put him in prey developing training then you will fail or at best will not develop the dog to his actual potential. And such dogs are then pronounced as not easily trainable or too defensive or untrainable or late bloomers and so on what ever. "Get another/different dog types." However what is the problem is a trainer who is using the only method he / she is familiar with and not the proper method which the dog needs. That is what I meant in my former post when I said forcing square peg through round hole. That is why most LE trainers prefer 60: 40=P:R dogs.
Many old style Czech or DDR dogs are more on the defense side. Both prey and defense is adequate in absolute numbers, but they are more on the defense side in relative terms. These dogs are most definitely trainable! Most trainers are not even aware of methods utilizing defense as a base of training. These trainers then will force these dogs into prey based methods and thus fail to succeed. That often leads to statements which we see here. Like that they are not as trainable as well as WG lines and so on. The truth of the matter is that such dogs where the ratio is in favor of defense are not trainable well with prey methods. However if you use defense based method or parallel method( developing prey and defenses in parallel but independently ,..as the dog is ready to accept each) then they are trainable just fine.
Prager Hans
However every dog is at least little more prey or little more defense. Thus the method needs to be adjusted to it. Always go along with the dog and not against it. Always build on what the dog is good at and do not try to fix what the dog is not good at by forcing him into performing in such not as good ( realtively) drive or what ever. Always build on stronger instinct and when the dog reaches proper level, then channel into the other instinct . Back and forth.. If it is prey then build on prey . If it is defense - build on the defense.
The problem which I see is that dogs with higher defense then prey are being build on prey. That is because that is what sport dogs are 99% of the time - more prey and less or no defense and thus all methods there are to build dogs on prey. These methods are then carried into other-non sport systems of training as a panacea. If the dog is more defense and you put him in prey developing training then you will fail or at best will not develop the dog to his actual potential. And such dogs are then pronounced as not easily trainable or too defensive or untrainable or late bloomers and so on what ever. "Get another/different dog types." However what is the problem is a trainer who is using the only method he / she is familiar with and not the proper method which the dog needs. That is what I meant in my former post when I said forcing square peg through round hole. That is why most LE trainers prefer 60: 40=P:R dogs.
Many old style Czech or DDR dogs are more on the defense side. Both prey and defense is adequate in absolute numbers, but they are more on the defense side in relative terms. These dogs are most definitely trainable! Most trainers are not even aware of methods utilizing defense as a base of training. These trainers then will force these dogs into prey based methods and thus fail to succeed. That often leads to statements which we see here. Like that they are not as trainable as well as WG lines and so on. The truth of the matter is that such dogs where the ratio is in favor of defense are not trainable well with prey methods. However if you use defense based method or parallel method( developing prey and defenses in parallel but independently ,..as the dog is ready to accept each) then they are trainable just fine.
Prager Hans
by Paul Garrison on 14 December 2012 - 16:12
Slamm Thank you for the posts. I am learning new turms for me to describe what I am looking for
Paul
Paul
by darylehret on 14 December 2012 - 17:12
I used to assume that my TD just didn't know how to work that kind of dog, but it's NOT just that. These arbitrary ratios of prey to defense aren't meaningful, not useable information at all. You could claim your dog has "balance" with an over the top prey slash over the top defense "50/50" or whatever. It doesn't describe a dog's level of trainability. There's more to training than protectionwork. What am I going to need defense drive for in an article search or obedience routine? If you aren't working in pure pack drive (and many dog owners will never know the pleasure of doing so), you have what else to motivate the dog? Food, toys or other equipment, fear, and physical corrections are some of the things available to work with. We've probalby all had independant minded or unwillful dogs that can be bribed with food or toys, or coerced with fear and pain, but the attraction to the WORK while willfully engaging with the handler should be anyone's prefered mode of training. Trainability isn't ALL or even more importantly about prey drive, and defense drive can only get you so far with it's limited application.
by Prager on 14 December 2012 - 18:12
Yes there is more to training then protection work but I was talking specifically about protection work and police protection and I said so. You are moving from one topic to another. So do you now want to talk about article search and obedience?
Yes there are different motivations. Your statement that it is not meaningful to talk about prey: defense ratio makes no sense in protection,.... is peculiar. But since you want to now talk about obedience are you telling me that in article search it does not matter if the dog has more defense then prey? To answer your question I will say that in article search you will need prey drive and you as a skillfull trainer will need to tap into it. . Nowhere do I say that the dog which is optimally 50: 50 has no prey drive. Also ratio has nothing to do with the absolute amount of the drive.
In absolute numbers 1:1 is 50:50: ratio and so is 10:10.
The truth is that different lines are more willing to work for his master. For example dogs from mainly 4th and to a great degree from the second male line are not that great and willing workers. On the other and dogs from 3d, 5th and 6th line are more willing workers and more willing to please the owner. However the dogs from 2nd and 4th line are more suitable for civil protection and second is more suitable for tracking and 3 is best for sport. and 5th is great mix and we would like to say that they are more versatile then the previous lines.
Thus if you use dog which is a typical representative of a 4th line and want to do tracking or obedience then you are working with the wrong type of a dog. I WILL STRESS THAT THESE ARE JUST GENERAL TERMS even so they are mostly the truth there are exceptions, variations and fluid transfer from one line to another.
This all is generally the truth regardless if the dog is from WG or Czech. Thus I bleieve that to make blanket statement about WG lines and Czech lines is failure.
Training same as breeding is compromise. If you have a dog which is typical representative of a 4th line then you may and probably will struggle through obedience. If you have a dog from 3rd then you probably will have perfect obedience and article search but your dog may have trouble to be civil.
The borders between the boxes of bloodline are not sharply defined but are quite fluid but I am using them to say that there are different dogs for different tasks even so we struggle for versatility.
Prager Hans
Yes there are different motivations. Your statement that it is not meaningful to talk about prey: defense ratio makes no sense in protection,.... is peculiar. But since you want to now talk about obedience are you telling me that in article search it does not matter if the dog has more defense then prey? To answer your question I will say that in article search you will need prey drive and you as a skillfull trainer will need to tap into it. . Nowhere do I say that the dog which is optimally 50: 50 has no prey drive. Also ratio has nothing to do with the absolute amount of the drive.
In absolute numbers 1:1 is 50:50: ratio and so is 10:10.
The truth is that different lines are more willing to work for his master. For example dogs from mainly 4th and to a great degree from the second male line are not that great and willing workers. On the other and dogs from 3d, 5th and 6th line are more willing workers and more willing to please the owner. However the dogs from 2nd and 4th line are more suitable for civil protection and second is more suitable for tracking and 3 is best for sport. and 5th is great mix and we would like to say that they are more versatile then the previous lines.
Thus if you use dog which is a typical representative of a 4th line and want to do tracking or obedience then you are working with the wrong type of a dog. I WILL STRESS THAT THESE ARE JUST GENERAL TERMS even so they are mostly the truth there are exceptions, variations and fluid transfer from one line to another.
This all is generally the truth regardless if the dog is from WG or Czech. Thus I bleieve that to make blanket statement about WG lines and Czech lines is failure.
Training same as breeding is compromise. If you have a dog which is typical representative of a 4th line then you may and probably will struggle through obedience. If you have a dog from 3rd then you probably will have perfect obedience and article search but your dog may have trouble to be civil.
The borders between the boxes of bloodline are not sharply defined but are quite fluid but I am using them to say that there are different dogs for different tasks even so we struggle for versatility.
Prager Hans
by Gustav on 14 December 2012 - 19:12
A handler learns to handle what they own or is given to them....a dog trainer knows how to read the dog and operate in the most effective element of the dog. Sometimes we attach terminology to try to describe our thoughts, but you don't need terminology to read or train a dog. Hans, basically what you are saying is what I see out in training in sport and police. The amount of people who can read, and develop dogs with less prey and stronger defense elements is shrinking as the years go by.
I have a 8month male right now that is probably 50/50 prey / defense. I don't even work him in protection....period. I'll start him around one year to 15 months. No prey tug, biscuit, or sleeve....nothing but tracking and allowing him to be incorrigible...lol. Yet at 18 months if everything continues he'll be a monster....I'm positive. My point is to do all that prey work with him now won't really benefit him enough to be worthwhile.....his strength is active aggression and I'll wait until he is ready to work in the training modules that will fit him best( btw, he is social with great nerve...no fear basis here as some on this board think fight/ defense always derives from). My current 14 month old has been on full sleeve and police sleeve since he was 7/8 months. Need I say what drive he operates in primarily......different dogs, different approaches.
by darylehret on 15 December 2012 - 01:12
Hans, I'm not moving from one topic to another, not prey drive, not defense. Trainability is not in my opinion much of a direct result of either. Your description of general willingness from each of the bloodlines is a welcome sight.
by Slamdunc on 15 December 2012 - 02:12
Trainability and how you motivate and work a dog is absolutely related to drive and temperament. "Pack drive" although nice to have is not really going to get a dog to work with any desire or precision in a challenging environment like Sport, SAR, Patrol work or Detection work. It may work at home with limited distractions and the need or desire to please the handler....But that could also be related to fear of consequences for not pleasing the handler.
by darylehret on 15 December 2012 - 12:12
Trainability to me, is the dog's ability to learn a process or routine and retain what it has learned. Prey drive, defense, AND pack are just facilitators of the process, exactly as you stated "how you motivate", and no more the reason a dog "learns", as gas is "the reason" a car goes. Sometimes the same drives can be inhibitors in the learning process. I didn't say pack drive was trainability either, but it can make for a nice ride on the way.
by K9 BERG on 15 December 2012 - 20:12
Of course not . This is the best way to learn . But everybody see a dog a different way and have also other
expetations from their dog .
I have one question , when your dog play ,is he playing normal the first 5 minutes ?
About the differents blood lines . Western dogs are mostly breed for ball drive . Of course there are
( lucky ) breeders they are breeding an alround dog .
Czech dogs before were really outstanding dogs . Real GSD with the right spirit and a good civil drive .
Maybe not the best for Top Sport but exellent for breeding dogs with a very good but also very clear in their
head .
The ex DDR lines are super Civil dogs , normally not a crazy ball drive . They are serious when they work
and most of them give their life for the family . I had the honor to have all 3 from top kennels and I like them
all 3 . But the next one gonna be an es DDR line . Not for SchH but for reality sport . ( Police )
Always different situations - and the most importent is that we don't do it for points or Titles .
In the first place it had to be fun for the dog and me .
If you like more information and video's , you may always write me at rpman1@hotmail.com
Good luck .
Rudy
expetations from their dog .
I have one question , when your dog play ,is he playing normal the first 5 minutes ?
About the differents blood lines . Western dogs are mostly breed for ball drive . Of course there are
( lucky ) breeders they are breeding an alround dog .
Czech dogs before were really outstanding dogs . Real GSD with the right spirit and a good civil drive .
Maybe not the best for Top Sport but exellent for breeding dogs with a very good but also very clear in their
head .
The ex DDR lines are super Civil dogs , normally not a crazy ball drive . They are serious when they work
and most of them give their life for the family . I had the honor to have all 3 from top kennels and I like them
all 3 . But the next one gonna be an es DDR line . Not for SchH but for reality sport . ( Police )
Always different situations - and the most importent is that we don't do it for points or Titles .
In the first place it had to be fun for the dog and me .
If you like more information and video's , you may always write me at rpman1@hotmail.com
Good luck .
Rudy
by brynjulf on 16 December 2012 - 00:12
I have to agree 100 % with Gustav on this one.
Plenty of prey, lacking in hardness and courage. Usually problems in stressful environmental situations, surfaces, darkness, enclosed areas, venturing into unknown environment, etc. lacking in maintaining the fight when assailant fights back.......a lot of reasons. They usually do well on solid surface in daylight, especially in known areas. Unfortunately, a police service dog cannot have luxury of performing in comfortable situations.
That has been my exact experience, i'm at the point where I am thinkin " what's all the hype with these Czech dogs...." I deal with Showlines that have more nerve base on a consistent basis. I see the most consistent breeding, with the West German Working Lines.
Now the problem with my perspective is that I don't breed dogs. I only train them so I have no idea who raised them or how they were raised and have no control over the development phase. I often get dogs that have been to other "trainers" and have behavioral issues I have to fix.
Plenty of prey, lacking in hardness and courage. Usually problems in stressful environmental situations, surfaces, darkness, enclosed areas, venturing into unknown environment, etc. lacking in maintaining the fight when assailant fights back.......a lot of reasons. They usually do well on solid surface in daylight, especially in known areas. Unfortunately, a police service dog cannot have luxury of performing in comfortable situations.
That has been my exact experience, i'm at the point where I am thinkin " what's all the hype with these Czech dogs...." I deal with Showlines that have more nerve base on a consistent basis. I see the most consistent breeding, with the West German Working Lines.
Now the problem with my perspective is that I don't breed dogs. I only train them so I have no idea who raised them or how they were raised and have no control over the development phase. I often get dogs that have been to other "trainers" and have behavioral issues I have to fix.
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