Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 7

Duke
Yes but pigeon breeding is more complex than Horse or dog breeding, Let me put it this way you will not get a town topper fly and win from Barcelona, You have to breed selectively for many years withthe correct bloodlines and even like then the blood does not always come up to what you expect, Trial and error but once you have a family developed like i have it becomes a little easier not that Barcelona will ever be easy
In the  situation you mention with Como then of course he would be unheard of so unlikely ever to be bred from and he would coming from a pet home because all would be different probable no Joints done or anything else
You did not answer my last questions or has anyone yet but there is time for those who disagree to do so and many do disagree with what i have said going on what has been said in posts above. By the way Como is not the Father of my next Puppy
Steve1

well to answer your question , im keeping pups from my combinations ,and they are sometimes one titled parent , sometimes both parents not titled , and I would pick them over most titled combinations available

this bitch im training now steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qECfWfCUsQ 

she is from one parent titled , one not , but both parents hips and elbows clear
all her littermates are hips and elbows clear and are ALL going to be titled , most in schh and one in KNPV


but your correct , if someone uses titled parents , and a famous father , they are likely selling the pups easyer

so as a selling tool it works , to guarantee better quality not

What is a good GSD I guess is the first question, is it a dog titled in bitesports, a SAR-dog, police/military-dog? And suppose the dog is titled, what level and performance is good enough for breeding? Here in sweden we don´t need a SCH-title to breed, what is required is HD/ED-free and that the dog gone thru a charactertest, hence there are many dogs that besides the basics are "only" titled in non-protection sports like search/tracking-trials, or for instance a BH and a selectiontest for policework. For me that is OK as long as I like the dog and I think a breeder should be able to know if the dog has what it takes without needing to title it. I think breeding to dogs with fine titles but still is just average or not the type of dog you like is way worse. On the other hand I´ve seen some dogs at competitions that I thought didn´t make such a great impression(mabye they had a bad day?) but the offspring from some of these dogs have been pretty good, so the lines and breedingcombination I guess is mabye more important than a good performance of a dog which lines/family may be more mediocre.

If SCH3-titles earned in high level competitions was the only acceptable alternative for breeding I guess we would miss plenty of good dogs for breeding, as been said the genetics is what counts not points and titles.

So what you are saying is you can get any old German Shepherd and train it to Sch3, regardless of breeding quality, none of this means anything then in the sport of Sch, or  police dogs or any other kind of work, any dog will do the job well enough
In that case why do we need the powers to be in ANY country meaning the governing body in the USA, Sint Hubertus in Belgium and the SV in Germany to name three all is pointless in what they do. in short anything goes . But my opinion is that any one thinking that way is a complete fool
Quality counts, meaning  bloodlines. by breeding from inferior animals the type and work rate will diminish very quickly
For me there are to many inferior German Shepherds being bred, People have got to the stage where they own one so it must be bred from, this is stupid and bringing the German Shepherd down to an inferior breed level
Blood counts top blood, working blood, once that stops the level of dog stops it will go backwards very fast. Testing generation after generation of work to bring out the best and strongest minded dogs is the only way. Stop Working and the subject stagnates and dies
Steve1

I've been following this thread since it started. And I am really enjoying it for the most part. Duke and Steve I respect you guys alot even though you both have differant philosophy when it comes to breeding dogs. I have a couple of questions . Steve do you actually consider most dogs that are trained for Sch.. work or sport. Do you see Sch. as a target of accomplishment, or a tool for evaluation. I'm not asking being senicle, it's just  I've heard so many times people say I'm going to get this dog his Sch 1 or I'm going to get his Sch 3, While being someone who is big on examining my dogs from the time they are born until they are placed or working job, I would ask how much time of actuall evaluating goes on while in the process of completing titeling dog. I've always put alot of infusus on genetics and as Duke said I have to know personally what inherant qualities the dog will bring to the table, as every dog has strengths and weaknesses, Matching like characteristics will never bring more than what is already at the top of the gene pool. I really like evaluating dogs before starting to train as I have trained a few and I know training can also be a means of hiding faults. Saying this I love to see people get involved in sport training, I love it when a dog excells in it , I even watch every video Duke and Steve has on their young dogs and you both have great dogs. But for breeding to a titled dog for me would not be a deciding factor at all. Good thread, keep it going awhile.
Hank

Books need titles

steve , I will ask you another question

every german bred , showline german shepherd has its pedigree loaded with fully titled , and KKL1  dogs ,

how are the workingqualities of these hundreds of thousands of dogs

Duke
You ask questions but you do not answer when asked one or two however regards yours, I know nothing about SL Dogs. I do know many get titles and get korclassed, but i have never watched a show line ever get that grade so i cannot comment of the quality of those grades score wise, But going back to my latter posts.
Now you tell me this what work is there for this type of dog which it can do in Belgium and Holland other than the ScH sport, do you train them to be protection dogs do you train them for ring sport of which is declining over here and this told me by Bert Bellon when i trained with him some months ago. Do you train them to be herding dogs or for military or what, There is not much call for these dogs in Belgium to do this work. There are not enough places for them to go to if they were. However saying all this NONE of these are my cup of tea, My sport is the ScH sport if i stop doing that then the dogs will become couch potatoes like a huge number do now.
Getting back to breeding of which in 60 plus years as i have said many times, I have never bred a litter of Pups and i have owned some very good working dogs,To win herding competitions for fun in my younger days
As with my other Sport Pigeons i have always put great emphasis on Genetics, Bloodlines which do the job through many generations of testing . testing for me is the only way of knowing and improving, It is the same with Dogs, Dogs are trained by Man, Pigeons are trained by Man, Dogs learn to do what Man wants. Pigeons do learn to do what man wants But both do it only to what there abilities will allow them to do.
Some dogs are brainer than others, Some Pigeons are brainer than others, Some Dogs Temperament is better suited than others, Pigeons will try to home but do not have to, It is all in the Blood lines and so to my opinion you need to breed from the very best proven bloodlines you can if you wish to do well at the thing you are interested in doing, Meaning it is no good just picking up any old G.S dog to win the Worlds with
It is no good going to the street pigeons to breed a pigeon to win Barcelona.
I think the above will answer your questions. So for me as i have always said Genetics is paramount, through generations of selective breeding and testing along the way, BREEDING without TESTING is futile
Breeding well thought out in advance it does not always work but it has a far better chance than breeding from untested stock
This method of doing things has stood me well over my lifetime with animals and birds and so will remain that way in the last years i have with Dogs and Pigeons
Incidently my last Border Collie Charlie i was offered 25.000 Sterling for him at 5 years old. a huge amount of money then, ME' an ordinary working Lad turned it down and i am not a sentimental sort of Guy but the dog did me proud in his working life. He died in Belgium aged over 14 years old and he is buried in the rose garden, My regret is that i never did get a son of him he was a great sheep herding dog,
Steve1

Continued
Now to those who are breeding from Dogs which have had no form of testing at all meaning work of any kind. Now the only thing you can judge those dogs by is the piece of paper Pedigree and your own eyes there is nothing left to to do. So this is to all you Guys out there who say a dog does not need to be tested before being bred from
So you breed your dog he or she has never been tested for its temperament simply because it would without doing some kind of work never feel that kind of stress or pressure. So you will never know what the true temperament of your dog is, Now you breed him or her and you keep a Puppy from your Dog, Well you do not believe in working the dogs so your Puppy lives the same no work nothing tested and so on perhaps a litter mate may work some will not so on it goes generation from generation
Is it not better to Work the dog to test it generation after generation than to see the dog become just a door mat
This is no way of going on to improve any breed of dog certainly not a working line dog
One final thing i will say
Over here you go and put these two types of dog up for sale or Puppies from them one from a proven Working line through generations of testing and another who has not worked at all through the generations. I tell you the one owning the non worker will be keeping there Puppies every single one of them they will not be sold
Look on the Top working Sch dogs over here in Belgium and Germany there Pups are sold as soon as the Female is in Pup or sometimes before the mating takes place. depends again on the Female of course and how good she is but with my expectations of what the Female must have and be, see above posts you are lucky to get a Puppy for there are many people out there who think the same as i do and those pups will be snapped up
This is my last post on this subject a nice thread but i cannot go talking any more on my expectations of these dogs and what i want from them.
Now the Dogs have been exercised and Fed, the Pigeons Cleaned out exercised and Fed, now we are off to a Competition ,Two Guys per team B &C  Obed and Protection each two team members from  different Clubs in Belgium. Should be a Fun day, I hope the rain stops for them
Steve1
Duke just read your post
So you breed these Dogs to do this work in Holland , Belgium and Germany do you be sure to say where they go to. Now if every Dog sport Owner did this where would the call to place all these Puppies go, there would as i said be no work for them the numbers woukd be to great, You already it seems have a foot hold in that market so you do not need to start it, but if everyone in Holland and Belgium stopped doing the sport and followed the same route where would the Puppies go. as i said Couch potatoes. It is eveident that although you do Helper work you are not in love with the Sport as a whole but keep these Dogs solely as money making machines

steve , there  are multiple directions my dogs are going , dogs from my breeding are in KNPV , Patroldogs ,Narcotic dogs , Search and rescue , guiding blind , multiple are in private security companys , multiple are in peronal protection, (which is not your average dog barking in the garden) and lots of them are in IPO/SCHh

now you tell me the ones I sold for sschh  purposes are better dogs and producers than the other ones

I will even turn it around and say that sportdogs bred for the sole purpose of sport , are bad for the breed as intended by good ole Max