crossing a mali and gsd - Page 7

Steve your claim that mix bred dogs can't compete in schutzhund in Belgium rings a bit hollow to my ears. Do you have any proof of that? Sorry that I can't just take you word for it, but I have seen mixed bred dogs in schutzhund competitions all over the world. Why would Belgium be the lone wolf?

The DMC even has a program to allow dogs without a pedigree to come into the breeding pool . Here is an example. This is a dog with an NVBK background that was allowed into the DMC studbooks. http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2/ATim-NVBK-16241

And there is simply the fact that people fake papers. It's extremely common in Malinois. There are simply too many good dogs that don't have papers and most Malinois breeders are focused on breeding good dogs; not good papers.

When I look at photos of old GSDs, like in the '20s-'40s, to me they LOOK like Shepawahs. They do not look like today's showlines dogs, that is for sure, no matter what country you are talking about. Heck, BELLA looks more like a Shepawah than like a showline GSD.

Still, first outcross nearly always produces improved dogs. But then subsequent generations produce weaker and weaker dogs unless you get back to inbreeding for certain select traits! So you would have to do a new outcross with ever litter, I think, to keep a dog of this mix working, or get right back into inbreeding. Seems like a giant waste of time and weak dogs to me. 

Steve, Thanks for the compliment about being a know it all. My comment about Rottweilers you did not understand also. YOU said a crossbreed COULDNOT go to the WUSV. I was just pointing to the fact that Rottweilers can't go to the WUSV, so how does the WUSV SHOW that a crossbreed can't participate in SCH as you said at first, until corrected. YOU were the one who started the line about crossbreeds not being able to do Sch, then you inserted the WUSV to support this position. As it turns out since the first premise was wrong, the WUSV was not relevant as WE were talking about crossbreeds and you inserted the WUSV which only allows GS. The problem with me and you is you think that Sch is the only thing a GS is on earth for and you constantly inject Sch into everything. Unfortunately, there are many other things that a GS has been successful in doing and people breed the GS for these things. Just like your point of reference is always stuff done in Sch in Belgium. Again unfortunately, Belgium isn't the only place that has GS, in fact the breed didn't originate there, so there are many places who have GS and opinions that are as valid as Belgium. You have hard time accepting that or else you don't realize you have mentioned Belgium a thousand times like we didn't hear you the first. Nobody else on this list always has to compare the USA with Belgium and Europe. YOU do it every time. It gets a little tiresome.
Let's just talk dogs, training, breeding, etc. Nobody is superior to anybody else, there is good in all countries and bad in all countries. Our difference Steve is I wouldn't get on this forum and tell YOU about racing pigeons and the specifics. Sure I could read an encyclopedia but I am smart enough to know your vast experience in this area allows you to have forgot more than I will ever read.I also know that because of YOUR experience in pigeons that the more I open my mouth the more you will see my lack of experience and knowledge. I KNOW THIS, so I only weigh in on things I know and have known for many many years from doing. Does that make me a know it all, in the world of German Shepherds definitely not, but compared to some it may appear that way.

Mr Smith
I told you i was certain what i said is correct and it is correct 100%, No dogs which are cross bred are allowed to compete in the Sport of Schutzund in Belgium, When i have entered a Dog in a trial i give them two Work Books and the Pedigree of the Dog plus i fill in a form for the club holding the Competition and on this form it asks the Official  Id of the Dog, its Parents Sex Age etc, and  what club you are affiliated too within the V V D H etc
The work books details correspond to the details i put on the entry form but i guess they know what they are looking for
Possibly you may be able to compete without the Work Books but you will get no signed clarification of the entry into the trial or the result of your Dog So thats about it,  The WUSV is for German Shepherd Dogs only not for Mali's or Mutts that i guess you know that
Whether you believe what i say makes no difference to me, I know and that is good enough and after attending some 20 odd trials a year i have yet to see a dog who looks as if it is a cross of any kind, but then i guess there are some Guys on here would doubt that i would recognize one anyway if i saw one, but again that would only be there opinion
Steve1

Yes, you need a FCI-pedigree for SCH or other FCI-recognized dogsport, like mondioring for example also in sweden, and if´t the same also in belgium I guess it´s the same in most european countries. Then you can get a FCI pedigree, like a´tim has for example, or dutchies from KNPV-lines with FCI-pedigreees, but´s that is a different story and I suppose not all European countries may have same rules when it comes to this.

Steve,
 Morning or should i say evening to you. Curious as to what God has to do with they way "WE" think of dogs? I didn't realize anyone mentioned that God had anything to do with anything on this topic besides he gave a few of us the ability to be here today and for that I am Thankful. But other than that this topic had nothing to do with that and you always try and throw the subject off when your out of line of coulda simply said "Well I didn't know that" or How about "You know I learn something new everyday". Why does it always have to be You know more than everyone else or that your POV s the only way to go? You will argue this point and other have given you ALL the proof you need that these mutts do compete. Maybe not in the WUSV because it is ONLY for GSD's NOT for any other PUREBRED dog. That is NOT the only sport type competition out there for dogs. But anyway Steve be less argumentative and a little more open minded and your feathers won't get ruffled up so much.

Player

Player
 read the posts correctly , I was replying to those people who mentioned the Sport of ScH, no other kind of sport or of any work a cross bred dog can do,  One from the USA said they can compete in Sch, with a Cross bred Dog fair enough another said they can also compete in Holland fair enough
I said they cannot compete with a cross bred Dog in Belgium, what do we get,  You do not know what you are talking about some of these guys think they are so good there bloody heads must be as big as a bushel basket,  But sorry to disappoint all you knowledgeable people i do know what i am talking about, it is so you cannot compete in Sch in Belgium with a cross bred dog of any kind that is fact
Now where are all you people with my last post I said if you are not in the top bracket as Dog Trainers and Handlers and i refer to the Guys on this thread, And to  be a top Trainer of Dogs and handler you will need to go and contest trials for selection into the USA Championships or the WUSV,. Now the crux of all this is
If you are not in such a top bracket as Dog trainers and Handlers why then would you need to cross a German Shepherd Dog with a Mali to get a better performance Dog, when you are not good enough an handler trainer to get the best out of the Dog as they already are
Now Player regards me getting my feathers ruffled, I told you last time nothing Riles me easy, least of all in print
And i can tell you after competing in the Karate sport for over 10 years you cannot afford to get Riled, or frustrated  or lose your focus, for if you do then you get hurt badly plus that is not my nature, Of course there are things which will get me mad as hell but not words Lad sorry to disappoint you
Also read my words in the posts This Cross breeding will in the end come back to bite those in the Butt who do it as i said Guys on this forum from the USA have openly said that the American Shepherd is going downhill and by crossing them people who are not in the know will make the breed worse, Thats my opinion and i stay with it,
There are very  few really Top Dog handlers in this world they are in the minority seeing how many people own this breed of Dog and i am referring to all countries in the world,
So why would the rest of us who have not yet reached that peak need to improve on a good Breed of Dog, all but a few people are capable of getting the best out of them in there present state, Proof is there for all to see if any of you Guys that have posted on this thread and have competed at National  and WUSV level for your country then fair enough, But for those who have not then you have not got the potential yet to get the best out of the breed at the present time and you do not need to improve what is already too much for you to get the best out of
Steve1

Quote" And to be a top trainer or handler in the world you need to go to USA nationals or WUSV. REALLY?????
Tell that to top trainers in KNPV, or Ring Sport, or Herding. What about top military and police trainers that have trained for 30 plus years????
The above statement is so clueless as to not deserve responding to. Tell the top trainers at Stuggart Police Academy that you have to do Sch to be a top dog trainer....totally ridiculous!!!! The countless Career Military dog trainers that have never done Sch that they are not "TOP" trainers because they haven't competed in WUSV. I'm sure they would agree with a person who hasn't even done the criteria he claims that HAS to be used to be a top trainer. I am out of here. You win Steve!!
You really outdid yourself this time...peace!!

Gustave
Stop the twisting and turning like a fish on the hook  and trying to make yourself the Man because you fail dismally, You know full well i am talking about the Guys who practice the sport of ScHh no other sport or activity like the Police were bought into it by me and were not in the equation and you know that, but you are twisting things around and i have not said it so you are a bloody Liar and that i do mean and a Coward to boot i have met your sort many times, they and you are what i call a right shit heads
No you are out of it because you will have to make things up like a little Boy, You talk about herding there are many types of herding, but when  i said that i had done Sheep Herding competitions with Border Collies Two to be exact bought up and trained from 8 week old Pups and trained and competed with by me winning around 20 competitions that did not mean anything of any merit and was not  training in your or others eyes, yet you mention herding now You talk a lot of of rubbish, and it shows how inadequate you really are
I am out of it as well You are more slippery than a bloody eel, and you certainly are not worth it One thing i cannot stand is a Liar and you sure are one
Steve1

Damn Steve talk about someone Beating their chest!!! I thought I told you not go running around getting your feather's ALL fluffed up.lol Weren't you the one talking about your karate experience and how they taught you to CONTROL yourself you rowdy ol dude. Remember don't lose Focus this wasn't about if the cross could do SCH. By the way the original post was about what do you think or have you seen this cross? Obviously you don't like it move on.  There are the people on this post that have seen these dogs in action and SOME like them. From reading most the posts MOST people on here would rather have a purebred GSD or Mali opposed to the cross. It was never if these dogs could compete in Sch like what YOU tried to turn it into. When people repeatedly try and tell you that these dogs are used and have been used successfully you just plain ignore it. Sticking your head in the sand is DUMB. Oh I never head of this or that I am sure a couple of friendly questions to your training director would answer Ton's of your question's. Talk about someone that twist and turns and spins around. Just for your information I don't want the cross or like the cross(probably cuz i have never seen one) I am happy with the GSD's that I have. But I am not going to knock the next person for doing something that doesn't even concern me or my breeding program. Remember Focus, Don't get Riled, and don't be Frustrated because Not everyone here agrees with Stevie.


Player