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by Prager on 22 February 2010 - 16:02
So HOW would YOU train a dual purpose dog to get used to the environment where he is going to be working? Like crowded airport with all the noise and hustle.
You got to take the dog there as soon as possible in his age and level of training. Humanly muzzle the dog, so that he can not bite. Sometimes, I wonder if people even read what I am actually saying before they go off to criticize it. Use of muzzle is a standard procedure all over the world.
I mentioned in former post different possibilities why the dog would bite. One of them is that someone may step on his foot. Now what? What training will prevent dog from biting inthat situation? On top of it: The
handler will screw up, parents will screw up, kid will screw up., trainer will screw up, dog will screw up....(not may but will) .
Don't be so PC about it and do not be afraid of being offended when you look at the "horrible" sight of a dog with the humane muzzle on.
If you follow this advice then everybody is going to be OK and no kid or any undeserving person will get bitten.
BUT: Common sense is not that common.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
You got to take the dog there as soon as possible in his age and level of training. Humanly muzzle the dog, so that he can not bite. Sometimes, I wonder if people even read what I am actually saying before they go off to criticize it. Use of muzzle is a standard procedure all over the world.
I mentioned in former post different possibilities why the dog would bite. One of them is that someone may step on his foot. Now what? What training will prevent dog from biting inthat situation? On top of it: The
handler will screw up, parents will screw up, kid will screw up., trainer will screw up, dog will screw up....(not may but will) .
Don't be so PC about it and do not be afraid of being offended when you look at the "horrible" sight of a dog with the humane muzzle on.
If you follow this advice then everybody is going to be OK and no kid or any undeserving person will get bitten.
BUT: Common sense is not that common.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Held on 22 February 2010 - 16:02
I totally agree with Phil Behun and Prager well said gentlemen.
Also i feel very bad for this little girl and this dog that they were put into this situation because the handler and the training was not good enough.
Anyone who is talking about training the out by kicking the dog in the chest or any where else,is truly an idiot and does not know shit about training dogs or anything about dogs.Have a n ice one.
Also i feel very bad for this little girl and this dog that they were put into this situation because the handler and the training was not good enough.
Anyone who is talking about training the out by kicking the dog in the chest or any where else,is truly an idiot and does not know shit about training dogs or anything about dogs.Have a n ice one.
by Krazy Bout K9s on 22 February 2010 - 16:02
"BUT: Common sense is not that common.
Prager Hans"
AMEN TO THAT PRAGER, NO WONDER SO MANY THINGS HAPPEN OUT THERE IN ALL ASPECTS OF THIS WORLD AND DOGS...PREVENTATIVE...COMMON SENSE SHOULD RULE, you are right, there is a major lack of it nowadays....DUH!!!!
Who knows, maybe that child was carrying explosives on her, hidden where no one would suspect!!!!....LOL....
Darn people get over it. Train with muzzle on in public...how hard is that to understand...
Sorry, just my 2$ worth due to the rise in inflation!!!!
Besides being a bit bitchy this morning
Steph
Prager Hans"
AMEN TO THAT PRAGER, NO WONDER SO MANY THINGS HAPPEN OUT THERE IN ALL ASPECTS OF THIS WORLD AND DOGS...PREVENTATIVE...COMMON SENSE SHOULD RULE, you are right, there is a major lack of it nowadays....DUH!!!!
Who knows, maybe that child was carrying explosives on her, hidden where no one would suspect!!!!....LOL....
Darn people get over it. Train with muzzle on in public...how hard is that to understand...
Sorry, just my 2$ worth due to the rise in inflation!!!!
Besides being a bit bitchy this morning
Steph
by Prager on 22 February 2010 - 16:02
Eichentluft:
There is no excuse for any dog to bite a 4 year old child!!! None!!!!!
Nobody anywhere is talking here about excuses. Nobody with sane mind will try to excuse this incident.
Eichentluft:
Please keep in mind that there are differences between reason and excuse.
There are reasons why things happen and there are no excuses for them. The reasons often without excuse are called negligence, stupidity, evil, not having a common sense, acts of god, .....
Please make a note of it.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
There is no excuse for any dog to bite a 4 year old child!!! None!!!!!
Nobody anywhere is talking here about excuses. Nobody with sane mind will try to excuse this incident.
Eichentluft:
Please keep in mind that there are differences between reason and excuse.
There are reasons why things happen and there are no excuses for them. The reasons often without excuse are called negligence, stupidity, evil, not having a common sense, acts of god, .....
Please make a note of it.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Held on 22 February 2010 - 16:02
I also agree with Slamdunc.Wellsaid.Have a nice one.
by Jon luc on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Im not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I am not stupid. I have a wife and a 4 year old daughter.
I go to work and do the the work of 3 people. But it is not never enough for my boss.I do what he ask because I love my wife and my daughter. They are everything to me. I am just your average Joe in this crazy world. But one day my wife does a good deed, and runs to the
airport to pick up her relative and get back to cook dinner. That same day Phil brings a dog he just bought,
to the airport to show his friends at customs. And to do some training. My daughter see's the dog, and can tell
it's not right in the head. But my wife say's don't worry, the dog won't bite you. The dog is not on a leash and
attacks my daughter and because she is only 4 years old her flesh is not very tough. The dog bites her on the
leg, and severes the femoral artery . And in less than 3 minutes she bleeds to death.
Well I go to my daughters funeral and than I ask customs what happen . I ask if criminal negligence charges
can be brought against the dog owner. They tell me no, and we are all real sorry about your daughter.
Being a simple man, I don't how to split the atom. I sit at home realizing my daughter is gone. The one thing that made
this crazy world make any since. I start thinking about the dog owner, maybe take him out to a remote place
and take my time, and when I am done I well have relief. But before I can make a plan my friends remind me of my
faith in God, and I don't follow through with what would distroyed my life completely.
Do you feel me, Phil.
I go to work and do the the work of 3 people. But it is not never enough for my boss.I do what he ask because I love my wife and my daughter. They are everything to me. I am just your average Joe in this crazy world. But one day my wife does a good deed, and runs to the
airport to pick up her relative and get back to cook dinner. That same day Phil brings a dog he just bought,
to the airport to show his friends at customs. And to do some training. My daughter see's the dog, and can tell
it's not right in the head. But my wife say's don't worry, the dog won't bite you. The dog is not on a leash and
attacks my daughter and because she is only 4 years old her flesh is not very tough. The dog bites her on the
leg, and severes the femoral artery . And in less than 3 minutes she bleeds to death.
Well I go to my daughters funeral and than I ask customs what happen . I ask if criminal negligence charges
can be brought against the dog owner. They tell me no, and we are all real sorry about your daughter.
Being a simple man, I don't how to split the atom. I sit at home realizing my daughter is gone. The one thing that made
this crazy world make any since. I start thinking about the dog owner, maybe take him out to a remote place
and take my time, and when I am done I well have relief. But before I can make a plan my friends remind me of my
faith in God, and I don't follow through with what would distroyed my life completely.
Do you feel me, Phil.
by CrysBuck25 on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Wearing a muzzle sounds fair and humane to me. After all, someone said what good is a dog to detect explosives if he can't attack and subdue the terrorist before he can detonate it? OK, here's my problem with that. First of all, this dog bit a four year old girl, not carrying any explosives at all. Secondly, the mother was seriously bitten trying to get the dog off the daughter.
Alright, assuming that the dog is trained for dual purpose, isn't the handler also supposed to be carrying a weapon, and be trained so that his reflexes will allow him to react to a threat detected by his dog? Does all responsibility for apprehending a terrorist rest on the withers of a dog? If so, I think it's time to retire the handler.
I am no expert, I admit that, but it seems logical to me that if a muzzled K9 reacts to someone, his noise and motion will be enough to distract most people, giving the officer handling him the time to pull his weapon and subdue the suspect himself.
Slamdunc's dog doesn't like anyone, but he doesn't let Boomer attack little children...No, he makes sure where his dog is at all times and keeps his training sharp. In a place like an airport or train station, where there are always lots of people, muzzles are about the only way to have a dog safely around the public.
Crys
Alright, assuming that the dog is trained for dual purpose, isn't the handler also supposed to be carrying a weapon, and be trained so that his reflexes will allow him to react to a threat detected by his dog? Does all responsibility for apprehending a terrorist rest on the withers of a dog? If so, I think it's time to retire the handler.
I am no expert, I admit that, but it seems logical to me that if a muzzled K9 reacts to someone, his noise and motion will be enough to distract most people, giving the officer handling him the time to pull his weapon and subdue the suspect himself.
Slamdunc's dog doesn't like anyone, but he doesn't let Boomer attack little children...No, he makes sure where his dog is at all times and keeps his training sharp. In a place like an airport or train station, where there are always lots of people, muzzles are about the only way to have a dog safely around the public.
Crys
by Krazy Bout K9s on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Key word here people is; in training,,,,,,,,,TRAIN WITH MUZZLES ON, AND WHO KNOWS THAT THE LITTLE GIRL DIDN'T HAVE EXPLOSIVES ON HER...I feel bad for the girl and the mother...
BUT, WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS YET!!!!
Everyone always just jumps to conclusions as usual....speculate and make a big deal out of it so all Malinois and German Shepherds are banned from any police, custom or service dog work, actually they are getting banned in service dog work already, due to bad publicity!!!
BUT, WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS YET!!!!
Everyone always just jumps to conclusions as usual....speculate and make a big deal out of it so all Malinois and German Shepherds are banned from any police, custom or service dog work, actually they are getting banned in service dog work already, due to bad publicity!!!
by CrysBuck25 on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Makes sense...Steph. But still, there are those dual purpose K9s who just don't like people, unless they've got teeth into them. I believe that better training, better assessment of temperament, and better handling could have avoided this situation altogether.
It was stated that federal agencies such as Customs just don't have the funding to be as thorough as they should be, but I find that to be a major excuse. If you can't afford to do it right, don't do it at all. I don't agree with Jon's statement about kicking the dog in the chest, but I do understand what he's saying as to what a person would feel like if it were their child injured or killed by a dog that just reacted.
If I were walking in an airport with my five year old and my three year old, and a detection dog came by, I would be very careful to keep my children away from it. If it attacked my child, however, in react I would be hard pressed not to kill it outright, and I know my husband would kill it. There has to be a degree of judgement exercised by handler and dog, especially the human...
I laugh every time I see someone tell me how well trained their dog is and then they repeat the commands over and over again...which the dog ignores in favor of doing whatever he's interested in doing at the time. Or they say their dog doesn't do this or that, while the dog is doing just that behind them, and they are unaware. I don't claim to have Oakley well trained, but she is well trained enough to know that certain things like "No" mean just that. And if there's a question of control, the leash stays on and I watch what's going on.
I just don't see any good excuse for a child to be injured by a dog, when the dog should be under control if it is going to be around crowds...Dulles is a huge, busy airport, so there's just no excuse...
I agree...Train with Muzzles on..And maybe work with them on, too.
Crys
It was stated that federal agencies such as Customs just don't have the funding to be as thorough as they should be, but I find that to be a major excuse. If you can't afford to do it right, don't do it at all. I don't agree with Jon's statement about kicking the dog in the chest, but I do understand what he's saying as to what a person would feel like if it were their child injured or killed by a dog that just reacted.
If I were walking in an airport with my five year old and my three year old, and a detection dog came by, I would be very careful to keep my children away from it. If it attacked my child, however, in react I would be hard pressed not to kill it outright, and I know my husband would kill it. There has to be a degree of judgement exercised by handler and dog, especially the human...
I laugh every time I see someone tell me how well trained their dog is and then they repeat the commands over and over again...which the dog ignores in favor of doing whatever he's interested in doing at the time. Or they say their dog doesn't do this or that, while the dog is doing just that behind them, and they are unaware. I don't claim to have Oakley well trained, but she is well trained enough to know that certain things like "No" mean just that. And if there's a question of control, the leash stays on and I watch what's going on.
I just don't see any good excuse for a child to be injured by a dog, when the dog should be under control if it is going to be around crowds...Dulles is a huge, busy airport, so there's just no excuse...
I agree...Train with Muzzles on..And maybe work with them on, too.
Crys
by Krazy Bout K9s on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Crys,
Supposedly this dog was "IN TRAINING", I know and rode with a bunch of police dogs that loved to bite, I have one now, retired K-9 that loves to bite. I have total control over him at all times. He went through 4 officers that couldn't handle him, he will do anything for me.. I watch his stance, expression, I can feel what he is feeling....I was bit in the face near the eye while riding with one of those officers, years ago...I would not say a word because I don't want that dog being put down. He was a very sharp dog. And I should have been more aware, door was open between officer and dog...he was doing what he thought was his job, the officer was driving at the time, so didn't have control...not anyones fault, not putting blame. The dog Was SHARP!!!
Most Police K-9's are good at thinking... Handlers need to be aware of their dogs. The dogs need the training in similar situations where they will be working again....PREVENTATIVE....PUT THE DARN MUZZLE ON WHILE TRAINING...HOW HARD IS THAT FOR ANYONE TO UNDERSTAND...NEW PROTOCOL WITH CUSTOMS DOGS IN TRAINING...
This is getting ridiculous...IF IT WAS ME GETTING BIT, or my kid which I don't have, IN THAT SITUATION, I WOULD NOT HAVE THE DOG PUT DOWN JUST BECAUSE OF THAT BITE...IT (the dog) WOULD NEED FURTHER TRAINING, with a muzzle on, AND MAYBE GO TO A DIFFERENT HANDLER THAT COULD HANDLE THE DOG OR DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT...
Shit happens, handlers get bit by their own dogs too...that is part of training!!!!
KEY WORD HERE IS "TRAINING"
Steph
Supposedly this dog was "IN TRAINING", I know and rode with a bunch of police dogs that loved to bite, I have one now, retired K-9 that loves to bite. I have total control over him at all times. He went through 4 officers that couldn't handle him, he will do anything for me.. I watch his stance, expression, I can feel what he is feeling....I was bit in the face near the eye while riding with one of those officers, years ago...I would not say a word because I don't want that dog being put down. He was a very sharp dog. And I should have been more aware, door was open between officer and dog...he was doing what he thought was his job, the officer was driving at the time, so didn't have control...not anyones fault, not putting blame. The dog Was SHARP!!!
Most Police K-9's are good at thinking... Handlers need to be aware of their dogs. The dogs need the training in similar situations where they will be working again....PREVENTATIVE....PUT THE DARN MUZZLE ON WHILE TRAINING...HOW HARD IS THAT FOR ANYONE TO UNDERSTAND...NEW PROTOCOL WITH CUSTOMS DOGS IN TRAINING...
This is getting ridiculous...IF IT WAS ME GETTING BIT, or my kid which I don't have, IN THAT SITUATION, I WOULD NOT HAVE THE DOG PUT DOWN JUST BECAUSE OF THAT BITE...IT (the dog) WOULD NEED FURTHER TRAINING, with a muzzle on, AND MAYBE GO TO A DIFFERENT HANDLER THAT COULD HANDLE THE DOG OR DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT...
Shit happens, handlers get bit by their own dogs too...that is part of training!!!!
KEY WORD HERE IS "TRAINING"
Steph
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