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by give that dog a job on 31 December 2009 - 15:12
bob im talking about out of the same litter. not breeding for the purpose of schh even though some do it)not what im im talking about in this case.
In one litter of high end proven working line dogs you can assess which dogs are most suitable for what job. And schh vs police is a noticable difference. from puppyhood out of the same litter. you can have one sar 4 police 3 schh dogs. or any varyiation out of proven breedings.
There is a distinct fifferen in the dogs suitable for the work and dogs whom arent. and a lot of the washout end up in schh.
as well as there are some that would do great at either. but the percentages still remain few schh dogs would cut it in the police realm.
Take kreative kennels for ex. they raise and train for the sole purpose of police. they have some nice dogs come out of there from proven czech/ddr lines. you know how many wash out and are put out for sport or working homes cause they cant cut the police force. I have one of there top police puppies of last year that is used will be used for PSA and various other real life tasks as I assign them. This spring will be certified by the NTPDA requirements as a recognized trailing dog.
However back on point the washout rate is a high percentage for police dogs and the scraps are left to sport. Many kennels who breed for the police operate in this manor and produce top notch dogs in both fields. but do not cross the two and think cause a dog can get a schh title he can be a police dog.
i think we can all agree to become a good police dog you need a sound dog genetically to begin with who has what it takes and many do not. and there are good dogs in both side and terrible dogs in boths side. I think we have all seen or heard of bad examples on both side of the fence.
In one litter of high end proven working line dogs you can assess which dogs are most suitable for what job. And schh vs police is a noticable difference. from puppyhood out of the same litter. you can have one sar 4 police 3 schh dogs. or any varyiation out of proven breedings.
There is a distinct fifferen in the dogs suitable for the work and dogs whom arent. and a lot of the washout end up in schh.
as well as there are some that would do great at either. but the percentages still remain few schh dogs would cut it in the police realm.
Take kreative kennels for ex. they raise and train for the sole purpose of police. they have some nice dogs come out of there from proven czech/ddr lines. you know how many wash out and are put out for sport or working homes cause they cant cut the police force. I have one of there top police puppies of last year that is used will be used for PSA and various other real life tasks as I assign them. This spring will be certified by the NTPDA requirements as a recognized trailing dog.
However back on point the washout rate is a high percentage for police dogs and the scraps are left to sport. Many kennels who breed for the police operate in this manor and produce top notch dogs in both fields. but do not cross the two and think cause a dog can get a schh title he can be a police dog.
i think we can all agree to become a good police dog you need a sound dog genetically to begin with who has what it takes and many do not. and there are good dogs in both side and terrible dogs in boths side. I think we have all seen or heard of bad examples on both side of the fence.
by lancegfx on 31 December 2009 - 15:12
Hello,
Before, Sch. was a real test. Dogs which pass it have great chance to do "real work". But now even some not worthy "show dog" can have Sch. III. So could these dogs can really do the job? I don't think so but it's just my opinion. Many dogs have it in their blood => Gene and many don't. These who have it can do any job you want them to do Sch., PPD... others can pass sport trial and that's all. In real life, pressure is not the same, situation too is not the same etc. Even training for Sch. is not the same as for "real" dog...
Before, Sch. was a real test. Dogs which pass it have great chance to do "real work". But now even some not worthy "show dog" can have Sch. III. So could these dogs can really do the job? I don't think so but it's just my opinion. Many dogs have it in their blood => Gene and many don't. These who have it can do any job you want them to do Sch., PPD... others can pass sport trial and that's all. In real life, pressure is not the same, situation too is not the same etc. Even training for Sch. is not the same as for "real" dog...
by lancegfx on 31 December 2009 - 15:12
Hello,
Before, Sch. was a real test. Dogs which pass it have great chance to do "real work". But now even some not worthy "show dog" can have Sch. III. So could these dogs can really do the job? I don't think so but it's just my opinion. Many dogs have it in their blood => Gene and many don't. These who have it can do any job you want them to do Sch., PPD... others can pass sport trial and that's all. In real life, pressure is not the same, situation too is not the same etc. Even training for Sch. is not the same as for "real" dog...
Before, Sch. was a real test. Dogs which pass it have great chance to do "real work". But now even some not worthy "show dog" can have Sch. III. So could these dogs can really do the job? I don't think so but it's just my opinion. Many dogs have it in their blood => Gene and many don't. These who have it can do any job you want them to do Sch., PPD... others can pass sport trial and that's all. In real life, pressure is not the same, situation too is not the same etc. Even training for Sch. is not the same as for "real" dog...
by steve1 on 31 December 2009 - 16:12
You know some of you guys are funny Of course Show lines can get a title of sorts But would they get consistent high scores in regular competitions against true working line ScHh dogs
It is not just about getting a bloody title it is how you win that title no matter what sport you are in, A dog can scrape though and get titled But it is what the score is that counts with proper Schh people they do not want a passing score they want Consistent high scores But this is not just about ScHh Dogs
This is about other Dogs doing a job where many on here say a ScHh Dog cannot do
I have said it long enough now but it is falling on very hard of hearing people
Put your Police Dog after training on the Schh sport, if the Dog has the right genetic makeup it will do okay on the ScHh field
Then Get someone over there with a Good ScHh prospect and train it for Police work, That Dog too will make a good job of it if it too has the right genetic makeup
I have said it now long enough but there are some thick skinned people on here with one tracked minds i hope they do not live there lives the same way with there heads in the clouds
The Only way to Know is for the same Dog to do both Police work and ScHh work as i have said i know of one but that was just one that i know of
Not any one of us can say differently Well some try masters of the German Shepherd Dogs will, there are some of them about on here for they cannot see the wood from the trees and i find them laughable
I have noticed over a time that many of you Buy in there Dogs already titled ready made and say i have a Titted Dog, you do but certainly no credit to those people and then we have others who get Professionals to title there dogs for them to me a false way of getting titles but we are not all the same
Finally this is to GIVE
What concrete proof do you have to say that a Police Dog can do well in the ScHh Sport
But a ScHh dog cannot do the job as a Police Dog
That is really stupid talk for without proof how can anyone say
As i said above My Pup Izzy will make a great ScHh prospect that without question
But if a little later i pass her over to the Police she will make a great job of that as well, She has everything one can want in a young Dog Strong Nerves, High Drives, Clear head and can switch over from one side of high drive to a Lovable calm little Pup in an instant or on command, plus she has the ancestry to back it all up
Of course you have to take my word but it is true and when we get back to training i will take a Video of her to prove what i say at the moment we have not trained now for two Months and probably not until the second half of 2010
I for one am not going on with this for we are going no where as always we will remain with our own ideas, These threads are okay but you have the ScHh haters on here or i should say Folk who think it easy to do, but i do not see them in the World Championships for if it is as easy as some think it is they should be there bringing Easy glory to there country and if it is as easy as they say, there are 1000's of very thick German Shepherd Dog trainers out there and i would be one of them
But Talk is Cheap costs nothing
Steve1
It is not just about getting a bloody title it is how you win that title no matter what sport you are in, A dog can scrape though and get titled But it is what the score is that counts with proper Schh people they do not want a passing score they want Consistent high scores But this is not just about ScHh Dogs
This is about other Dogs doing a job where many on here say a ScHh Dog cannot do
I have said it long enough now but it is falling on very hard of hearing people
Put your Police Dog after training on the Schh sport, if the Dog has the right genetic makeup it will do okay on the ScHh field
Then Get someone over there with a Good ScHh prospect and train it for Police work, That Dog too will make a good job of it if it too has the right genetic makeup
I have said it now long enough but there are some thick skinned people on here with one tracked minds i hope they do not live there lives the same way with there heads in the clouds
The Only way to Know is for the same Dog to do both Police work and ScHh work as i have said i know of one but that was just one that i know of
Not any one of us can say differently Well some try masters of the German Shepherd Dogs will, there are some of them about on here for they cannot see the wood from the trees and i find them laughable
I have noticed over a time that many of you Buy in there Dogs already titled ready made and say i have a Titted Dog, you do but certainly no credit to those people and then we have others who get Professionals to title there dogs for them to me a false way of getting titles but we are not all the same
Finally this is to GIVE
What concrete proof do you have to say that a Police Dog can do well in the ScHh Sport
But a ScHh dog cannot do the job as a Police Dog
That is really stupid talk for without proof how can anyone say
As i said above My Pup Izzy will make a great ScHh prospect that without question
But if a little later i pass her over to the Police she will make a great job of that as well, She has everything one can want in a young Dog Strong Nerves, High Drives, Clear head and can switch over from one side of high drive to a Lovable calm little Pup in an instant or on command, plus she has the ancestry to back it all up
Of course you have to take my word but it is true and when we get back to training i will take a Video of her to prove what i say at the moment we have not trained now for two Months and probably not until the second half of 2010
I for one am not going on with this for we are going no where as always we will remain with our own ideas, These threads are okay but you have the ScHh haters on here or i should say Folk who think it easy to do, but i do not see them in the World Championships for if it is as easy as some think it is they should be there bringing Easy glory to there country and if it is as easy as they say, there are 1000's of very thick German Shepherd Dog trainers out there and i would be one of them
But Talk is Cheap costs nothing
Steve1
by troublelinx on 31 December 2009 - 17:12
It has occured to me that sch is just a really neat obedience competition and has nothing to do with real working abilities. Mabey they should have a seperate title like sch1/2 sch 3/4 and sch 5/6. They will find the shittiest tempermented best trained dogs in the competition and let them earn the above titles. I train with a guy who has a young delmation rescue he would like to get him sch titled. He is a really good trainer and the delmation has better qualities than some of those show line dogs.
Hey, Iknow what, mabey after titleing him I we can find a police dept to purchase him as a patrol dog. I can probably convince him to sell the dog for $5000 any takers.
by Scoutk9GSDs on 31 December 2009 - 17:12
So what does Sch tell you about a dog? Courage? Scenting ability? trainability? How biddable the dog is? Stability?
Sch tells you nothing about any of those things. It does tell you that the dog likes the game, can memorize a pattern, can handle mindless repetition, can focus on a ball,tug or food oblivious to the world around him and can manage some control on the field. Stellar accomplishments wouldnt you say?
Sch tells you nothing about any of those things. It does tell you that the dog likes the game, can memorize a pattern, can handle mindless repetition, can focus on a ball,tug or food oblivious to the world around him and can manage some control on the field. Stellar accomplishments wouldnt you say?
by lancegfx on 31 December 2009 - 17:12
It's not about "Sch." vs "police dog", its about "sport dog" and "real working dog". Probability now that "real working dogs" pass your actual Sch. is very much higher than a Sch. dogs doing real task. Nobody says ALL Sch. DOGS CAN'T DO REAL JOB. It's foulish. With the right dog + right gene you can do ANY job (sport, military task, ppd,etc. even pet) but the right dog without the right gene can pass Sch. but will not be OK for real task even if you train him almost your life. Just my point of view.
by troublelinx on 31 December 2009 - 18:12
Lance
well said. are you in the market for a sch1 delmation working dog/rescue submissive pee er. I figure you pay 5000, i get 1000 for finders fee and that leaves 4000 for the origional owner?
well said. are you in the market for a sch1 delmation working dog/rescue submissive pee er. I figure you pay 5000, i get 1000 for finders fee and that leaves 4000 for the origional owner?
by Bob McKown on 31 December 2009 - 18:12
Schutzhund is a training foundation,Schutzhund shows the unique training abilities of the animal in question.
I donated a male to a sheriffs dept for training for there k9 program because they could not raise the funds He was 2 years old and started in all phases of training the K9 trainer who had to "evaluate the dog" because he was trying to sell them a dog came up with all sorts of reasons(many i,m hearing hear on this thread) why because he was started in Schutzhund how it would be a detriment to there program so I took him to there "trainer for there evaluation" He was condescending(as i,m hearing in this thread also) But low and be hold he passed all there little tests with flying colors and when asked if he could do some "simple" agitation, It must of been my neglect to tell him that the dog had been worked in a bite suit many times and excelled in it but he was so busy making excuses as to why the dog would need complete re training I forgot to mention it. Any how the dog has been on the force now for over a year and 3 of the dogs that were going thru the program that were sold to the depts also training from "reputible" k9 breeders never made it ...
Most of you are using dogs breed spicifically for sport and points and not dogs that are examples of good Schutzhund breeding and training so you will twist it any way you like.
Again a dog with a proper Schutzhund back ground and training from a pup can do either work or is atleast dispositioned for the work.
I donated a male to a sheriffs dept for training for there k9 program because they could not raise the funds He was 2 years old and started in all phases of training the K9 trainer who had to "evaluate the dog" because he was trying to sell them a dog came up with all sorts of reasons(many i,m hearing hear on this thread) why because he was started in Schutzhund how it would be a detriment to there program so I took him to there "trainer for there evaluation" He was condescending(as i,m hearing in this thread also) But low and be hold he passed all there little tests with flying colors and when asked if he could do some "simple" agitation, It must of been my neglect to tell him that the dog had been worked in a bite suit many times and excelled in it but he was so busy making excuses as to why the dog would need complete re training I forgot to mention it. Any how the dog has been on the force now for over a year and 3 of the dogs that were going thru the program that were sold to the depts also training from "reputible" k9 breeders never made it ...
Most of you are using dogs breed spicifically for sport and points and not dogs that are examples of good Schutzhund breeding and training so you will twist it any way you like.
Again a dog with a proper Schutzhund back ground and training from a pup can do either work or is atleast dispositioned for the work.
by Gustav on 31 December 2009 - 18:12
Steve, I don't know if you are referring to me but I am not a Sch "hater". I liked it better in past than now, but I still think it has it place. I don't have to ask somebody about either because I have done both. You keep bringing up about world placing in Sch. That proves nothing in terms of dog but rather the trainer. Wallace Payne has said on numerous occaisons that his dog "Pedro" was a sport dog and probably not suitable for policework. Of course Pedro only placed 2nd in the WUSV, I guess that meets your standards. I think people like Bob and Jim understand where I am coming from. I have 12 month old male now with lines to Asko, Sirk, Lewis Maletesta,Nick H, Aly etc, that I am doing Sch training with because of his makeup to excell in the sport. I just want to clear up that I am not anti-sch but would like to see it back like it was for the breed. Your other comments don't bother me just as I am sure it would not bother you if I said you knew nothing about marital arts. You don't need my opinion to validate what you have done in the art of self defense and I feel the same when it comes to working German Shepherds. Take care!!
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