All Natural Raw Diet - Page 7

Keith, what you're saying is true, BUT---- I say it IS a good reason not to because HOW CAN YOU ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE WHEN YOUR PUP COULD BE EXPOSED?  If you vaccinate for parvo, and their little bodies are busy warding off the shot, what happens when the real deal sneaks in there? They are not ready to fight it; their immune systems are still compromised from the shot. Theoretically, again, you are correct, and if you could keep puppies in a bubble, then I might change my mind about it, but until then...no parvo vaccs.

Does anyone wonder why parvo seems to get stronger every year??? Hmmm...maybe in our quest to destroy all viral and bacterial threats, we are causing strenthening of the very threats we're trying to avoid?! Like antibiotic resistance, too much protection is not always a good thing for longterm health. Yes, you have to be prepared to lose a few pups, (as you would in nature!) but overall, I don't think we're doing dogs any favors by all this vaccinating. I am well aware that many people disagree w/my philosophy, but I think we need to concentrate on perpetuating stronger and healthier dogs, and I firmly believe the more naturally you can raise them, the stronger they will be. Also, with little intervention, we can more easily see which are the strongest, which I think is important for long term breeding goals. Yeah, I know. Too Darwin-like for most pepole's taste, but sometimes nature knows best.

Some of the pups in my example were older; they were not under the typical age of inherited immunity via mother's milk anitbodies. Should've included that in my initial post.

There is absolutely zero proof that ANY vaccination, series, or single provides *guaranteed* immunity. Vaccines for bacteria or toxins are better than virus vaccines, though. Just read the label if anyone doubts me. I feel my dogs are better off having the strongest NATURAL immune system they can have. I also believe that more often than not, risking the acute illness is better than vaccinating and causing a chronic version, as can happen w/vaccines.

I absolutely do keep puppies in a bubble and encourage everyone to do so until their full series of shots is completed.  I would never, for example, take an 8 or 9 week old pup into PetSmart where everyone else's dogs have been and let him walk on the floor or ride in a cart like I see people doing all of the time.

There is no "natural immunity" to parvo.  I think you're playing with fire and it'll eventually bite you in the ass.

Keith, I wouldn't take any dog to Petsmart, ever.  You cannot keep them in a bubble enough to be sure. Parvo is everywhere; you could just as easily bring it home with you on your shoes. You can minimize risks, but you cannot eliminate them.

And how long after their "full series" is completed, do you decide they are 100% covered? How do you know? And if you believe you do ever know, then why couldn't the same thing be said for running a titer instead? Why couldn't a dog who had parvo develop some immunity against it for the future? How is that different than a vaccine? (Except that it was acquired naturally, and made it through the body's natural defenses, ie, mucous membranes, etc., instead of being put right into the body and bypassing all the natural defenses like a shot?)

I never said there is natural immunity to parvo. I only said I like to keep my dogs immune systems as strong as possible NATURALLY (through minimal chemicals, vaccinations, and all natural food) so that if/when they do encounter a nasty virus, they are as likely as they can be to be able to ward it off themselves.

It may bite me in the ass, but at least this way none of my animals suffer from the chronic problems associated w/over vaccination. I think you are too strongly convinced that some of these shots even WORK. I think every time someone brings their poor dog in for annual boosters (which the vets and drug companies know damn well don't help and can actually harm), that you're playing with fire.

Like I said, you have to be prepared to lose some pups, but if you don't see them all as dollar signs, and actually care more about perpetuating stronger dogs and not performing heroics to save a weak dog and later breed it, you are doing a disservice to the dogs.  I am not saying you do this; I'm just making a general statement as to why I tend to be conservative w/chemicals of all sorts. I try to go by the simple rule of thumb that if something couldn't/wouldn't survive in nature, it's not strong enough to breed, as in nature, it wouldn't get the chance. This is starting to turn into a derailment...sorry.

It's ok, Jen, the topic of vaccinations is a good one although maybe we should have started its own thread for it.  Maybe we should just agree to disagree but I think you need to differentiate between vaccinating and over vaccinating.  I don't see losing a pup to parvo as a sign of weakness any more than I see losing a pup to getting hit by a car as a sign of stupidity (in the pup, that is).

Oh, no, you're absolutely right. I didn't mean parvo specifically. When I talk about letting nature take its course, I was referring in general to what I call "heroic intervention." Like I said, I'm not saying you do this by any means...I only brought it up in reference to vaccines b/c so many of the same people who vaccinate and revaccinate also will do anything to save every puppy, which is fine, as long as you are honest and acknowledge that it probably should not be used for breeding, if, for example, it's littermates are healthy and it has been sickly since day one. Darwin, again. I don't mean you should take stupid risks and then call it "nature." Not by any means!

I should've clarified better that I am not saying succombing to parvo is necessarily a sign of weakness. I only meant that I think a pup's immune system is better able to fight it, should it encounter it, if either their shot was in the distant past, OR, they have not received one and they are in prime health. It's the "down time" between vaccination (providing it works in the first place) and exposure that is what really scares me and why I decided after the incident I mentioned that vaccinating them is not sure to help, and it seems that it can actually hurt, depending on what happens in the coming weeks afterward.
 
This is an interesting topic.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that you can't take a buffet style approach to this. You can't pick and choose certain parts and leave others and expect the same results as someone who subscribes 100%. What I mean is this: the person who feeds 100% raw, does no vaccinations (or very few) and in general tries to keep their dog in absolutely top health/condition is going to have better results in terms of health than the guy who feeds Ol Roy, skips vaccinations, puts his dog in harm's way due to negligence, and then tries to say he's taking a natural approach to health.

.. anyone here feed RAW milk daily pup through senior dog ? Have anyone here ever tried RAW milk for themselves daily ? Just curious.

You mean raw, like unpasteurized?

Not raw milk but I do get whole, non-homogenized milk from 100% grass fed cows from a local creamery.

Yes, this subject is indeed interesting...And worthy of it's own thread.

As to the parvo thing...I'm not entirely sure there's no natural resistance to parvo, Keith.  The reason I say this is it's very infectious, yet coyotes, wolves, and other wild canids don't seem to be getting completely decimated by it.  On the other hand, a friend of ours lost  a five year old Jack Russell to parvo, and the dog had a full series of shots at puppyhood, then all the recommended boosters throughout the following years.  The poor dog lingered for days before finally succumbing to it.  So I wonder, if there's no natural immunity to it whatsoever, why some dogs, even the unvaccinated, don't ever seem to get it, and others, though fully vaccinated, die from it?  Yet others, vaccinated and not, get it, but don't die from it. 

It's an interesting subject, though.  They say it's in the ground here, but I haven't seen any decline in the numbers of coyotes, and they are the ones most likely to come into contact with domesticated dogs and human habitation on a regular basis, and not be vaccinated.  And there aren't that many people I've heard of losing dogs to it, or having their dogs infected with it.

Just some interesting things I thought of while reading the thread this morning.

Crys

Crys,
Interesting indeed...do a google search on wolves and parvo or coyotes and parvo; they do apparently get it, as do foxes.  As I said before, it is unusual for an adult to die from this disease so only the pups in these populations are typically affected.