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by beetree on 10 April 2009 - 00:04
by MVF on 10 April 2009 - 00:04
Other PLUS OR MINUS Factors include
Strategic buyers -- in business, some companies pay premium for a business (more than its market value) because of synergy with its portfolio. In dogs, this appears to be a big factor for breeders who ascertain in advance that a certain puppy or adult "breeds well" to their current dogs. This synergy creates value for those strategic buyers. The sellers who know this promote their specialty lines to their sub-market and seem to capture a plus factor (perhaps a few hundred dollars). When the parents of the litter are not actually titled, this tends to get heavily emphasized, but those puppies are nonetheless often the puppies selling for under $1000, so it appears the lines don't actually add value, but they do. Just not as much as the lack of titling on the dam, and especially the sire, subtract.
LOCATION - much of California, metro NY, and chic zipcodes clearly command more. Someone once announced on this db that a mutt in metro NJ goes for $500 (NJ appears overpriced). The heartland, rural areas, the south, and Canada appear to command less. This factor, up or down, seems to be a few hundred dollars, and is justified by time and expense of travel or shipping cost, but of course does not reflect intrinsic puppy value.
by MVF on 10 April 2009 - 01:04
BREEDER RANKING and/or testing results within the litter. Not many years ago, "pick of litter" was a common plus factor of a an extra 10-20% in price. The fashion has moved to "fit" between buyer and puppy (everyone wins!) but of course some of the plus factors above (for example, working titles) disappear if the puppy shows no evidence or promise of such capacity. In a show litter, a very small, funny looking, miscolored, faulty puppy has a big subtraction factor -- we see such puppies go for $200-$500 less than others, especially if left behind. Except in odd cases, long coats and faulty colors do go for less -- sometimes much less. Keep in mind that if a highlines litter is up to $2000 because of its VA heritage and its red pigment and its elegant prospects at NASS, a long coat must drop a lot in value from that high base, as it captures little of that value. This is not to say that even the breeder thinks a long haired puppy is "no good". The long hair just loses a lot of the plus factors from the show winners upfront in the pedigree. These are the "to a good home" puppies -- and the discounts by breeders are not to be denounced, but are commendable, especially if the puppy is losing valuable socialization and bonding time. (Sometimes breeders claim that little Mr. Ugly was the pick puppy kept back - I don't know how often that works.) In working litters, responsible experienced breeders OFTEN will tell buyers which buyers seem good for high level sport, for club sport, are single purpose (if they are soft but use their nose), or are for companion status only. (What AKC breeders call pet quality -- but they are referring to good looks only. Their pick may be an dumb puppy afraid of his shadow.) Some breeders use Volhard, but I have not observed price differentials on puppies showing all 2's and 3's (that's good) and puppies who showed lots of 5's and 6's (who the hell are you? I'm busy sniffing.) Although I have observed puppies who were so obviously not working prospects discounted somewhat. (The most common example is a litter in which the top working pups are $1500 and these non-drivey or non-biddable or timid or overly independent pups are $1200, so we should say the minus factor is $300 for the non-working puppies in working lines (where the parents titles bumped the prices up in the first place.) An example, in Shelley's D litter, one puppy is ten was the sweetest charmer of all time -- but he had no social dominance challenge in him. He was the only pup in the litter who could be placed on his back and would smile up at you for 30 seconds like a (good!) golden retriever. Although Shelley had not Voharded them, she just knew in her experienced bones that this pup was not a protection prospect, and was selling him for $300 less than the others.
by MVF on 10 April 2009 - 01:04
We have seen an odd premium placed on SIZE -- even oversized puppies carry prices comparable to good dogs with much better breeding. What those oversized (future 120 pound males) take on as a plus factor seems to be pretty much what they lose as their breeding stock is rarely competitive. But the fact that big parents can make up for working and conformation titles shows that this plus factor is actually quite large (up to $500). I'm just reporting what I see!
Other specialty titles and talents (e.g. HGH) capture idiosyncratic value (not quite the same market in the US as there is for good tracking/detection dogs). Has anyone consciously paid an extra $300 for HGH talented puppies and care to share?
GOOD SAMARITAN FACTORS - you see these ads quite often. Kind hearted breeder is worried about last pup left behind. She knows he is fine, but the market is suspicious. Further, cognitive perception being what it is, people are not very good at seeing a puppy in isolation -- it is fair easier to see the puppy if "norma" in the litter than alone. The puppy probably was just a tad more reticient, just a bit smaller, just a smidge less pigmented, whatever -- but now the lack of socialization and family time IS having a detrimental effect. These breeders make pretty clear that they are anxious for the little fella to get a loving home fast and they naturally cut prices deeply. Another version of this is the wonderful family in the rags and rustbucket who are still crying over the loss of Gretchen (she lived to be 19 blind and deaf and incontinent). Sometimes human beings are wonderful, and economists can't find the logic to make the model say so.)
I have a lot of other notes in file but I need to make more sense of them before reporting them.
BOTTOM LINE: It's pretty darn hard to imagine a puppy worth over $3000. (Two Sgr parents who went to the BSP?)
None of this, however, is to say that a dog or bitch already titled, rated, and producing can not be worth quite a bit more. Economics has an EASIER time of modeling production value, but I did not get enough data the last time I solicited it to create that model.
Please let me know here or by PM if there are important factors you feel I missed. Not things you wish were important, but factors you believe are in fact descriptively important that I have missed. THANKS.
by MVF on 10 April 2009 - 01:04
TWO
by MVF on 10 April 2009 - 01:04
Ok, I can read some important scribbles.
The GOLD STANDARD BREEDER. You know the one, does everything right. The competitions, the study, the experience, the care and loving treatment, the care and love for the puppies themselves. Hey, some people lock the dam up in a shed, while others are tickling the puppies' feet. The buyer just knows this person will be helpful for months, maybe years to come. I am having a hard time putting a plus factor on this one, but I know from experience (as a buyer) that some of us value this greatly. I fear that those of us on the pdb value this more than most casual buyers, but it is valued in the market at some level. $200 per pup? I think it SHOULD be much higher, but what does the market say?
THE EVIL SMELLING FENNEL FACTOR. We've all shown up to a litter who are unanimously begging to be saved from hell. Even the dam looks like she'd wants to die. Some of us run. Some of us rant. Some of us rescue. But some people look forward to a bargain! These are the puppies who sell for $300 typically. They do not usually advertise here because we make sport of their ads and we don't buy their puppies (and we threaten to neuter them personally).
THE ELUSIVE DOG OF A LIFETIME FACTOR. There are some breedings that are so brilliant that if they gave Nobel prizes for dog breeding, they'd be in the running. These are subjective factors that go way beyond pedigrees and titles -- at least what is on the surface that we mere mortals can read and understand. Sometimes its the breeder, sometimes the breeding, sometimes just a puppy. (I personally believe that the dog of my lifetime was a fat bitch puppy in 1984 from a DDR-West German working cross litter who I failed to take home with me. I had my eye on the one gorgeous puppy in the litter, but she had insufficient spark for me to give in to her beauty. Meanwhile, I ignored a short-backed zesty puppy dying to show me her stuff -- she even followed me to my car and I brought her back. Only weeks later did that video of her taken out of the corner of my eye play back. She's probably been dead more than ten years and I still remember her with real grief. For you, it is a dog you were smart enough to beg, borrow or steal, or perhaps he has not yet slept on your rug. This is the dog or puppy that has no price. (You just sell your spouse.)
by beetree on 10 April 2009 - 15:04
(One typo gives me a chuckle, as I grow it in my organic vegetable garden: "THE EVIL SMELLING FENNEL ..." I know you mean KENNEL, but the sentence still works both ways.)
by wuzzup on 10 April 2009 - 15:04
by Mystere on 10 April 2009 - 16:04
Mirasmom,
You are lucky to live in New England, which is one of the most active schutzhund-training regions in the country right now. Please go to the USA website ( www.germanshepherddog.com) and click the drop menu on the far left. Click on "club list," then the New England region when the list page shows up. Find the clubs nearest you and check them out. The region has some of the best trainer/handlers and helpers in the country. There are some absolutely wonderful people in the New England region and they will be happy to help you. But, remember, "The Lord helps those who help themselves....and so do I." 
As long as you are willing to put in the work and dedication it takes to train a dog to titles, they will be, too.
by steve1 on 11 April 2009 - 15:04
The father of the Pups to be i mentioned in my post above and he is also the Father of the Young Heidi, Finished in second place today,
in the second of the three qualifying Trials for the Belgian National later this year, so to date a 1st and 2nd places
So he is heading for the Belgian Nationals with one trial to go
Steve
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