This is a placeholder text
Group text
by snajper69 on 27 February 2009 - 16:02
E-collar is just a tool, nothing else.
Baseball bat-can be used to play the game, or open up someone head.
Knife- can be used to prepare food, or stub someone to death.
Education - can be used towards greater good or to create atomic bomb.
Pick any subject that lies around you and I can guarantee it can be used for good or for bad, it's not the tool but the user that makes it into something that it should not be.
by eichenluft on 27 February 2009 - 17:02
Right. Excellent, snajper.
by Two Moons on 27 February 2009 - 17:02
One day maybe you can have your dog implanted with a device, won't that be cool.
by jennie on 27 February 2009 - 18:02
Mystere,
this man won the rottie IPO worldchampionships 2007 with a bitch, 293 points, I´m sure you mean someone else. As for the comment about swiss mals and training, most mals here have belgium/french/dutch dogs close upp, so they are not so different then what you find elsewhere, don´t know if you mean switzerland, a person from sweden is called swedish, swiss is a person from switzerland, only as a sidenote. Just becasue some doesn´t train with prongs/e-collars it doesn´t mean they are beating upp the dogs with "legal" tools or methods as is mentioned here. Personaly I don´t care so much what others do, just describing the situation here, you can´t train with e-collars on the workingdog clubs, in other parts of Europe it´s much more accepted with very heavy handed training and many view the dogs more as a tool than a friend to have fun with on competitions. Maybe that is why some use the more old school of training, makes the dog bitecrazy without much consideration of controll and relation ship with the dog, then when it´s time to obey you can always resort to heavy compulsion...
What I think intressting is the belief that e-collars is somehow a must for a sucessfull protectiondog, that you are a lesser trainer if you don´t use prongs or e-collars, the truth is more likely the opposite, the most frequent users of methods that involve pretty stiff corrections with prongs/e-collars are often the amatures, or people that have adopted a certain style/view of training dogs, often influented of some old school german SCH-trainer or similar;)
The view that hard dogs needs a lot of corrections is also questionable, the strong dogs often will not accept that form of treatment, most dogs will do what they benefit from and I guess that´s why many handlers are know using methods more based on rewards instead of corrections. Here is another succesfull mal trained without prongs/e-collars, have also partcipated many times in the world championships for belgians and the FCI IPO-championships,
www.youtube.com/watch
this man won the rottie IPO worldchampionships 2007 with a bitch, 293 points, I´m sure you mean someone else. As for the comment about swiss mals and training, most mals here have belgium/french/dutch dogs close upp, so they are not so different then what you find elsewhere, don´t know if you mean switzerland, a person from sweden is called swedish, swiss is a person from switzerland, only as a sidenote. Just becasue some doesn´t train with prongs/e-collars it doesn´t mean they are beating upp the dogs with "legal" tools or methods as is mentioned here. Personaly I don´t care so much what others do, just describing the situation here, you can´t train with e-collars on the workingdog clubs, in other parts of Europe it´s much more accepted with very heavy handed training and many view the dogs more as a tool than a friend to have fun with on competitions. Maybe that is why some use the more old school of training, makes the dog bitecrazy without much consideration of controll and relation ship with the dog, then when it´s time to obey you can always resort to heavy compulsion...
What I think intressting is the belief that e-collars is somehow a must for a sucessfull protectiondog, that you are a lesser trainer if you don´t use prongs or e-collars, the truth is more likely the opposite, the most frequent users of methods that involve pretty stiff corrections with prongs/e-collars are often the amatures, or people that have adopted a certain style/view of training dogs, often influented of some old school german SCH-trainer or similar;)
The view that hard dogs needs a lot of corrections is also questionable, the strong dogs often will not accept that form of treatment, most dogs will do what they benefit from and I guess that´s why many handlers are know using methods more based on rewards instead of corrections. Here is another succesfull mal trained without prongs/e-collars, have also partcipated many times in the world championships for belgians and the FCI IPO-championships,
www.youtube.com/watch
by Mystere on 27 February 2009 - 18:02
Jenni,
I mentioned NOTHING about Swiss Mals, Swedes, Swiss or anything of the sort. Please be more careful in your attribution, as I am rather proud and thankful to have received a classical education in a college preparatory school, rather than the usual US public school system. As a result, I do know the difference between Switzerland and Sweden and can easily point out both on the map.
I even know that Sweden was once a major political power, until it "got bright" and decided to elevate its standard of living, rather than going to war with the rest of Europe. Of course, it only learned that after fighting a 20-year war with Russia over a bog.
NOBODY has ever claimed, to quote you, " that e-collars is somehow a must for a sucessfull protectiondog, that you are a lesser trainer if you don´t use prongs or e-collars..." There is not a single post to that effect anywhere in this discussion on any of the 2-3 threads being pushed by a couple of people who are so stridently opposed to the use of e-collars, that they simply cannot accept that it is tool to be used, or abused, like any other. Even a simple red cord can be abuse. That is all anyone is attempting to get through to you. Can dogs be trained without it? YES. Are there excellent trainers who never use iit? YES Are there excellent trainers who use it humanely and efficaciously? YES Are there idiots who abuse it? YES.
So, now what?
I mentioned NOTHING about Swiss Mals, Swedes, Swiss or anything of the sort. Please be more careful in your attribution, as I am rather proud and thankful to have received a classical education in a college preparatory school, rather than the usual US public school system. As a result, I do know the difference between Switzerland and Sweden and can easily point out both on the map.
I even know that Sweden was once a major political power, until it "got bright" and decided to elevate its standard of living, rather than going to war with the rest of Europe. Of course, it only learned that after fighting a 20-year war with Russia over a bog. NOBODY has ever claimed, to quote you, " that e-collars is somehow a must for a sucessfull protectiondog, that you are a lesser trainer if you don´t use prongs or e-collars..." There is not a single post to that effect anywhere in this discussion on any of the 2-3 threads being pushed by a couple of people who are so stridently opposed to the use of e-collars, that they simply cannot accept that it is tool to be used, or abused, like any other. Even a simple red cord can be abuse. That is all anyone is attempting to get through to you. Can dogs be trained without it? YES. Are there excellent trainers who never use iit? YES Are there excellent trainers who use it humanely and efficaciously? YES Are there idiots who abuse it? YES.
So, now what?
by triodegirl on 27 February 2009 - 18:02
When my dad use to beat me as a child, he would often remind me afterwards that I was lucky, as he could have used the buckle end of his 3" wide leather strap. The same logic is being used to justify the use of shock collars, citing examples of "training" methods that could be much worse. And no, I've never titled a dog, and based on the threats I've received on this forum for expressing my opinion. I no longer want to.
by Changer on 27 February 2009 - 18:02
We are getting dragged off topic again with the e-collars being abuse discussion. I am not interested in that, there are plenty of other threads discussing that.
What I am interested in is seeing whether anyone reaches top competition level without the use of an e-collar and the answer seems to be a quite resounding NO. Wow. ...
Unless, as Jennie says, there are some holdouts in Sweden.
So, on the same subject (at least in my mind) is this a symptom of the sport's demands on training, a failure of training (I think that is what Jennie is pointing out, I might be wrong) or not training dogs that can switch drives fast enough and therefore we need the e-collar or another compulsive method, straps, choke cords, etc... to convince them?
What I am interested in is seeing whether anyone reaches top competition level without the use of an e-collar and the answer seems to be a quite resounding NO. Wow. ...
Unless, as Jennie says, there are some holdouts in Sweden.
So, on the same subject (at least in my mind) is this a symptom of the sport's demands on training, a failure of training (I think that is what Jennie is pointing out, I might be wrong) or not training dogs that can switch drives fast enough and therefore we need the e-collar or another compulsive method, straps, choke cords, etc... to convince them?
by Changer on 27 February 2009 - 18:02
Maybe also, since we tend to think that the people to reach the top are the best trainers, the implication is that people that don't use e-collars are not the best trainers since they cannot (or haven't) reached the top. While it hasn't been said, I certainly get that tone from all these posts.
Or is it that they just want to skate by with a 220 instead of a 300? what is the implication there? That a trainer who doesn't use an e-collar doesn't want to place well or won't do what they must to get a 300?
By the way, has anyone ever gotten a 300? I would love to see a video of that!
Or is it that they just want to skate by with a 220 instead of a 300? what is the implication there? That a trainer who doesn't use an e-collar doesn't want to place well or won't do what they must to get a 300?
By the way, has anyone ever gotten a 300? I would love to see a video of that!
by Mystere on 27 February 2009 - 19:02
Changer,
Not everyone wants to "get to the top" or "on the podium." Most of the people involved in schutzhund just want to have a good time with their dogs, and with people who share their passion for dogs/the breed/the sport. I am one of those who would probably NEVER be outside, were it not for being involved in schutzhund. I certainly would not be in any of the rural areas I have and do train in. Relatively few people ever even enter their regional championship, much less a national or international competition. There are even folks who have trained for years, and perhaps with multiple dogs, who have never trialed. There is an element of "stage fright" involved with trialing for most people, plus "stuff" happens.
NOT everyone who reaches "the top" (whatever that means) is an excellent trainer. Some of them are simply people who had the money to BUY a dog already trained and titled by someone else who was an excellent trainer. Several of those well-financed folks have been on podiums over the years. You can often tell who they are, because they can't compete at all after a while, until they buy a new fully-trained dog. Then, they are back on the podiums again. Podium Placement does not equal excellent trainer all the time. Sometimes it just means you have a lot of money, a wealthy spouse, or a wealthy client (who actually owns the dog).
Not everyone wants to "get to the top" or "on the podium." Most of the people involved in schutzhund just want to have a good time with their dogs, and with people who share their passion for dogs/the breed/the sport. I am one of those who would probably NEVER be outside, were it not for being involved in schutzhund. I certainly would not be in any of the rural areas I have and do train in.
Relatively few people ever even enter their regional championship, much less a national or international competition. There are even folks who have trained for years, and perhaps with multiple dogs, who have never trialed. There is an element of "stage fright" involved with trialing for most people, plus "stuff" happens. NOT everyone who reaches "the top" (whatever that means) is an excellent trainer. Some of them are simply people who had the money to BUY a dog already trained and titled by someone else who was an excellent trainer. Several of those well-financed folks have been on podiums over the years. You can often tell who they are, because they can't compete at all after a while, until they buy a new fully-trained dog. Then, they are back on the podiums again. Podium Placement does not equal excellent trainer all the time.
Sometimes it just means you have a lot of money, a wealthy spouse, or a wealthy client (who actually owns the dog).by Changer on 27 February 2009 - 19:02
Nia,
I know that not everyone wants to reach the podium. Thank god for all the handlers that just want to have a good time, since they do most of the work for the trials, food, etc....
And you and me both know that not everyone who reaches the top can train, they buy their trained dog and the scores go downhill. We've been in the sport a long time and seen that and other things.
But, most people assume that if John Doe got to the top, then he or she must know what they are doing, and if everyone who reaches the top uses electric, then that must be the way to go. And maybe it is......
I wouldn't know since I've never even been to Nationals as a competitor, let alone done well. But I plan to.
Shade
I know that not everyone wants to reach the podium. Thank god for all the handlers that just want to have a good time, since they do most of the work for the trials, food, etc....
And you and me both know that not everyone who reaches the top can train, they buy their trained dog and the scores go downhill. We've been in the sport a long time and seen that and other things.
But, most people assume that if John Doe got to the top, then he or she must know what they are doing, and if everyone who reaches the top uses electric, then that must be the way to go. And maybe it is......
I wouldn't know since I've never even been to Nationals as a competitor, let alone done well. But I plan to.
Shade
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top