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by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 19:02
Did I mention Auntie Shelley has scars from 240 bites, hundreds of staples and stitches in her arms, legs, hands, feet, and yes, a hundred or so in her SCALP, all received in about 5 minutes courtesy of a seriously unbalanced dog? I saw one of his sons in Germany (after he was PTS). He was JUST like his Daddy at 1 yr old... a drop-dead gorgeous wack-job.
Talk about an object lesson! When I tell you guys I learned most things I know the hard way this is the sort of hard way I'm talking about. Ha ha ha.
Let us go back a bit. When you look for a stud dog, you look for something that is over the top. He will produce for the most part a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Then you breed to the son, and he will produce a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Are you nuts? I love ya Darlin', but hat is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard or read... and I've heard a few, believe me.
If you breed over-the-top drives to over-the-top drives for a couple 2-3 generations without some very serious consideration for bomb-proof nerves and balance what do you get? Bad news friends and neighbors... You are as likely as not to get over-the-top nervy idiots that no one can do anything with. (and I mean NO ONE!) Like anything else in life, too much of what makes something good very soon makes it bad.
How do I know this?
GUESS.
SS
Talk about an object lesson! When I tell you guys I learned most things I know the hard way this is the sort of hard way I'm talking about. Ha ha ha.
Let us go back a bit. When you look for a stud dog, you look for something that is over the top. He will produce for the most part a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Then you breed to the son, and he will produce a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Are you nuts? I love ya Darlin', but hat is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard or read... and I've heard a few, believe me.
If you breed over-the-top drives to over-the-top drives for a couple 2-3 generations without some very serious consideration for bomb-proof nerves and balance what do you get? Bad news friends and neighbors... You are as likely as not to get over-the-top nervy idiots that no one can do anything with. (and I mean NO ONE!) Like anything else in life, too much of what makes something good very soon makes it bad.
How do I know this?
GUESS.
SS
by SitasMom on 23 February 2009 - 20:02
"domesticated hyena"
Good one..........LOL
Good one..........LOL
by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 20:02
"domesticated hyena"
Yeah, I spit my coffee with that one too. Luckily it missed the keyboard. Coffee isn't a bad color on me... really.
Yeah, I spit my coffee with that one too. Luckily it missed the keyboard. Coffee isn't a bad color on me... really.
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 20:02
Actually, Shelley, you are just as likely, if not more so, to get mediocre pets from breeding OTT to OTT. Nature does not favor extremes-it tends to pull it all back to the middle.
I have seen it in litters sired by the same OTT sire to a balanced, high, but not OTT bitch and to a fellow OTT bitch. The litter (and repeat breeding) to the balanced bitch produced excellent high to OTT drive dogs for schutzhund and for police work, as well as bomb detection. The OTTx OTT litter? Pure pets! Not a one of them would bite a biscuit with gravy on it. They had very nice OB and tracking, but had no interest or inclination for bitework. You may be familiar with part of their bloodline--Ilka (?) Schloss Birkenstein.
( I could be wrong about the spelling of her name, but the "I" litter bitch. I believe 3-4 of that litter were at the 96 USA Nationals, including the brother (Irco?) who seemed to take a helper (or two) down every trial.
I have seen it in litters sired by the same OTT sire to a balanced, high, but not OTT bitch and to a fellow OTT bitch. The litter (and repeat breeding) to the balanced bitch produced excellent high to OTT drive dogs for schutzhund and for police work, as well as bomb detection. The OTTx OTT litter? Pure pets! Not a one of them would bite a biscuit with gravy on it. They had very nice OB and tracking, but had no interest or inclination for bitework. You may be familiar with part of their bloodline--Ilka (?) Schloss Birkenstein.
( I could be wrong about the spelling of her name, but the "I" litter bitch. I believe 3-4 of that litter were at the 96 USA Nationals, including the brother (Irco?) who seemed to take a helper (or two) down every trial. 
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 20:02
I had a "drop dead gorgeous wack job" in my living room Tuesday-Friday...and what a f'd up animal HE was. Absolutely gorgeous, son of a legendary debatable dog in terms of temperament, but one that someone bred when they knew better...all in the name of money. I see no difference between money and points, for the record; both are poor reasons to breed a dog. He growled at me for telling him to shut up, yet the mailman was able to walk right past him when we forgot he was out there. LOL. Very unbalanced, IMO. The kind of dog to put on a great show, but under pressure, has very little to back it up. I'm sure he would serve as a lovely penis extension for someone who needed one. He is highly handler-aggressive, which seems to be a desireable trait these days....
by SitasMom on 23 February 2009 - 20:02
"a lovely penis extension for someone who needed one"
another good one.........
y'all are funny today
another good one.........
y'all are funny today
by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 21:02
You may be familiar with part of their bloodline--Ilka (?) Schloss Birkenstein
I am very familiar with that bloodline indeed. The dog I mentioned I couldn't even feed was Irco. He was the only one like that from the litter As far as I know he never managed to successfully breed a female in this country. He had, uh, "issues" with his German transplant owner that interfered with his success breeding. No way he would mount a female in the presence of that owner, although he would have done anything for Gerald Groos (who did the prep training on him for the major events here while the dog was in Germany AND in Yuba City, shipping him over here shortly before the event itself...) I see he did sire pups after he was sold to his 3rd or 4th owner. Irco was definitely NOT what I would call balanced, but the two of his littermates I knew of WERE. I really wanted to keep sable Indy for myself but the War Dept wouldn't have it. :-( He was entered in a few major events too, with less-than-spectacular scores, but IMO he could have V'd in any/every phase with the right handler.
Irco was an excellent example of how much variability there can be between littermates. There is a video of him taking out both helpers at the '96 North American in Los Banos. If you look and listen carefully you can see & here his handler step on the dog's foot when he was starting to lose control of the dog before the courage test. Irco was also in the '96 USA Nationals in VA but by that time the positive effects of GG's training had worn off.
I always felt sorry for that dog except for the space of time Gerald had him. I never found out where Irco went when he was removed from my property by his 2nd owner. I hope he got the good home he deserved in the end. Clearly he was happy enough to produce a 2-pup litter, which points to a positive scenario.
SS
I am very familiar with that bloodline indeed. The dog I mentioned I couldn't even feed was Irco. He was the only one like that from the litter As far as I know he never managed to successfully breed a female in this country. He had, uh, "issues" with his German transplant owner that interfered with his success breeding. No way he would mount a female in the presence of that owner, although he would have done anything for Gerald Groos (who did the prep training on him for the major events here while the dog was in Germany AND in Yuba City, shipping him over here shortly before the event itself...) I see he did sire pups after he was sold to his 3rd or 4th owner. Irco was definitely NOT what I would call balanced, but the two of his littermates I knew of WERE. I really wanted to keep sable Indy for myself but the War Dept wouldn't have it. :-( He was entered in a few major events too, with less-than-spectacular scores, but IMO he could have V'd in any/every phase with the right handler.
Irco was an excellent example of how much variability there can be between littermates. There is a video of him taking out both helpers at the '96 North American in Los Banos. If you look and listen carefully you can see & here his handler step on the dog's foot when he was starting to lose control of the dog before the courage test. Irco was also in the '96 USA Nationals in VA but by that time the positive effects of GG's training had worn off.
I always felt sorry for that dog except for the space of time Gerald had him. I never found out where Irco went when he was removed from my property by his 2nd owner. I hope he got the good home he deserved in the end. Clearly he was happy enough to produce a 2-pup litter, which points to a positive scenario.
SS
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 21:02
Yes, GARD was talking about his precious Mals, but there are GSD's out there that could give them a run for their money!
Recently, I heard about a police dog that was great on the job, but was such a nervebag when not actually working, he'd completely tear up the rear seat of the police cruiser if he wasn't crated. He'd pace back and forth endlessly in his kennel, too!
And as you've just read above, he's not alone, either!
Recently, I heard about a police dog that was great on the job, but was such a nervebag when not actually working, he'd completely tear up the rear seat of the police cruiser if he wasn't crated. He'd pace back and forth endlessly in his kennel, too!
And as you've just read above, he's not alone, either!
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 22:02
His sister was extreme and Over the Top in drive. Plus, nuts. i was present when she took down her kennel, TWICE in one day. I mean, she worked and worked, until she got the panels to disengage. Everything with her had to be done with force, and she apparenlty passed that on to her progeny...EXCEPT the ones sired by an extreme male. I loved the pedigree, but the breeder refused to even think of selling me one of her puppies, because she knew that wa not the kind of dog I wanted to train because everything took force with them. Give me a pup from a nice, stable, social, high drive, retrieving -fool bitch bred to an extreme male. It seems to work every time. Unfortunately, as Jenni sort of alludes to, people tend to breed an extreme bitch to an extreme male. I say you get bubkus from that, based upon what I have seen. If I am wrong, i hope someone can point to some extreme-extreme products I can watch for at the upcoming championships. If they weren't the mediocrities I've seen, I suspect they would be the type of fearsome unbalanced dogs Jenni is referencing. NOT the type of dog I would want. But, I could sell them ---I know exactly who'd buy them! If I could breed an extreme bitch to a hyena, I could sell those pups for more than Kraftwrk ever thought of selling a pup. I know I could!!
Quote by Shelley:
You may be familiar with part of their bloodline--Ilka (?) Schloss Birkenstein
I am very familiar with that bloodline indeed. The dog I mentioned I couldn't even feed was Irco. He was the only one like that from the litter As far as I know he never managed to successfully breed a female in this country. He had, uh, "issues" with his German transplant owner that interfered with his success breeding. No way he would mount a female in the presence of that owner, although he would have done anything for Gerald Groos (who did the prep training on him for the major events here while the dog was in Germany AND in Yuba City, shipping him over here shortly before the event itself...) I see he did sire pups after he was sold to his 3rd or 4th owner. Irco was definitely NOT what I would call balanced, but the two of his littermates I knew of WERE. I really wanted to keep sable Indy for myself but the War Dept wouldn't have it. :-( He was entered in a few major events too, with less-than-spectacular scores, but IMO he could have V'd in any/every phase with the right handler.
Irco was an excellent example of how much variability there can be between littermates. There is a video of him taking out both helpers at the '96 North American in Los Banos. If you look and listen carefully you can see & here his handler step on the dog's foot when he was starting to lose control of the dog before the courage test. Irco was also in the '96 USA Nationals in VA but by that time the positive effects of GG's training had worn off.
I always felt sorry for that dog except for the space of time Gerald had him. I never found out where Irco went when he was removed from my property by his 2nd owner. I hope he got the good home he deserved in the end. Clearly he was happy enough to produce a 2-pup litter, which points
If I could breed an extreme bitch to a hyena, I could sell those pups for more than Kraftwrk ever thought of selling a pup. I know I could!!Quote by Shelley:
You may be familiar with part of their bloodline--Ilka (?) Schloss Birkenstein
I am very familiar with that bloodline indeed. The dog I mentioned I couldn't even feed was Irco. He was the only one like that from the litter As far as I know he never managed to successfully breed a female in this country. He had, uh, "issues" with his German transplant owner that interfered with his success breeding. No way he would mount a female in the presence of that owner, although he would have done anything for Gerald Groos (who did the prep training on him for the major events here while the dog was in Germany AND in Yuba City, shipping him over here shortly before the event itself...) I see he did sire pups after he was sold to his 3rd or 4th owner. Irco was definitely NOT what I would call balanced, but the two of his littermates I knew of WERE. I really wanted to keep sable Indy for myself but the War Dept wouldn't have it. :-( He was entered in a few major events too, with less-than-spectacular scores, but IMO he could have V'd in any/every phase with the right handler.
Irco was an excellent example of how much variability there can be between littermates. There is a video of him taking out both helpers at the '96 North American in Los Banos. If you look and listen carefully you can see & here his handler step on the dog's foot when he was starting to lose control of the dog before the courage test. Irco was also in the '96 USA Nationals in VA but by that time the positive effects of GG's training had worn off.
I always felt sorry for that dog except for the space of time Gerald had him. I never found out where Irco went when he was removed from my property by his 2nd owner. I hope he got the good home he deserved in the end. Clearly he was happy enough to produce a 2-pup litter, which points
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 22:02
I seem to recall that Irco was sold to Italy.
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