The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 61

The fate of the breed is with the buyers. The breeders in general will do whatever involves the least time, money and effort. That's why there are more show breeders than knpv breeders. There are always enough gullible uneducated buyers to sustain dodgy breeders.

 English is my second language. Thus I am sorry if I do not express myself clear enough for comprehation. When I say genetic dominance  then by  that I  mean dominant genes which , due to their dominance, are expressing them selves  for many generation. This has nothing to do with dominant behavior fixed by genetics. 

ohhh ok pragar nice

ibrahim of course  Duke is wrong - again. Yes it is true that you can not get blood out of the turnip ( get something if it is not there.) but you can reestablish traits of strengthen/re-establish/rebring-in certain traits in the show GSD using the technique of in-line breeding  traits like protectiveness/solid nerves/courage.  Why not!?  Let me explain how that could be easily done and as a matter of fact it is done all the time. 

I suppose we are talking about Rolf Osnabrücker Land. Susie said that there are show lines which are poor workers and yet thay have Rolf  in their male line . I do not know if that is the truth but  for sake of explanation I  will accept that as a fact. To answer why some of the SL dogs with Rolf in their male line are not good workers is because the dogs selected for such stud service were not good representative of Rolf's working ethics. SL breeders used Rolf for specific pigmentation and pattern and did not give a rip for working temperament thus the working temperament disappeared and/or  got genetically pushed to the bottom of the genetic deck or were eliminated. I did not say that that is not possible. As a matter of fact I have said that when we maintain the specific line we are also trying to eliminate the faults. That is possible through selective breeding the  same way as show  line breeder can eliminate traits desirable to the breeder of working dogs as undesirable or unimportant to SL breeder. Only an idiot would suggest that the progeny of every dog is a carbon copy of the stud. And I am not such an idiot.  What we do is breeding in line  in order to maintain certain characteristics. Thus  if that is your goal why would you want to breed a dog which does not have such characteristics?! Now if you do not maintain  these characteristics then you may lose them.  Any idiot knows that. And I am such idiot too. (LOL) .   A breeder who cares for the breed and traits of the line will select continuously studs who do so and thus maintain and strengthen these lines and their traits and he does it as long as possible. The 5th line has different branches which all have slightly different preference of characteristics. I happen to love the branch going through Ingo v Rudingen who maintains the structure and workability of the super stud  Rolf.  Some other S lines may also have workability or Rolf byt Ingo fixes it in quite nicely.  So now when we put that away let me concentrate on Ibrahim's question. 

 As  I understood it,  the question was, if we can reestablish workability of Rolf into  the show line. Now first you would have to find breeder with such desire to reestablish such working trades into the SL. I pesonally thing it is a waste of time since we already have such dogs. the are in our working line!!!But nevertheless such breeder then  goes and reaches in the 5th male line  and to a specific dog from that line which is demonstrably   known to be strong in passing such  strong working ethics of this Rolf  and have also desirable structure to him . He may find it in the SL or he may have  to  reach into the working line for such dog.  For example if I want to breed Show dog to have characteristics typical of  Rolf. If i would like to saty within the sow line I would select ( in past)   SL dog   Vilo Arminius who is a 5th line which was founded by Rolf. Vilo has no  Ingo but  that is OK and will help us in the future breeding to avoid too close linebreeding ( different from breeding using male lines) when we linebreed on  Rolf with Ingo. Vilo was an ass kicking worker with ZVV2 title - not bad for a show dog  and as you can see there is strong similarity with Rolf

 in shape of head, ears color pattern  height : length ratio and type. We must forgive slight roach back but that is mainly due to positioning Vilo and after all  nothing is 100% . Thus I would take Vilo and bred him  to a specific female which also has such characteristics and is from 5th line  and is SL  dog.

Or I can reach into working dogs line which has established Rolf - Ingo connection like Balli Panta rei. Then You hold the litter back and select the dog who has structure of  a show dog and and work ethics of Ingo. Then you linebreed  on Ingo-Rolf some more and then you outcros to the dog with genetic difference but same characteristics and on and on and on.  

The question remains why to do so if there are plenty of dogs with Rolf's working ethics all over the place, like dog I used to own  this dog Ciro Dolmina who is 5th line. 

 Ciro is in samurai heaven now ,...he was one of the best working dogs while being a show dog I have ever had. 

This is done the other way around too, by  introducing show lines to work lines for specific improvement reasons  usually pigmentation. That is what breeding is all about. it is rules knowledge and imaginations ho to get things done. To say you can not do that is already failure. Not my stile.:) And this not "Hans    theory" as duke says if it would be I would be famous.

For those who will point to me that all those dogs which I used as an example are dead now, I will say - well it was just an example. 

 I hope what I have said helps. 

 

Prager Hans 

 P.S> I am sorry for the long post I told you that there is more to it  then the  confines of the forum can bare. And this is still just the beginning of the beginning.

In relation to dominance.  There is a bloodline I have been following lately.  Gucci vom Esblokhof http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=557457-gucci-van-esblokhof is himself a very strong dominant dog and throws that in his male progeny.  If you get them second hand you must be careful, very posessive, very fast, very intense, full grips, fast entries, not submissive in any sense of the word.  If you can train this type of dog you will have fun, if you cannot steer clear.

 

I would call him genetically dominant as he throws his drive and dominance in progeny with different females.

every serious breeder in the world knows that a dog wil produce what is geneticly there, not what was somewhere in his pedigree 10 generations back, and only on the sires line, without any concern tho whom and how they were bred to for 10 generations,

we have to realize that in 10 generations we have 1024 dogs on the pedigree, so it is both by genetic knowledge and common sense very unlikely that 1 of these 1024 dogs will be the only one contributing to your breedingresult today

if you want to breed hard dogs, you need to breed with hard dogs, not with a soft dog with a hard dog buried 10 generations back on his pedigree

this line theory thing to me seems implausible at best and downright illogical at worst.

 

if the lines were pure and strictly and massively line bred it would make sense, but they aren't. if there are even pure czech lines still please show them, as time goes on seems the czech breeders are crossing more and more WG dogs into their lines.

there are so many outcrosses in most of the lines hans assigns a line to if you drew a network map there would be frikkin nodes everywhere hence making the whole thing in most cases BS.

hans overrides this by saying things like yes the dog appears to be line X  but thru the dam line the sire phenotype is more dominant therfore it is a line Y as if Y somehow like magic masks sire A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K etc on both sides....maybe it is true but i don't see it but i am no breeder.

I had a man contacted me last night he new i was selling pups but he did not want a pup .He was looking for a stud dog .I asked him about his dog pedigree he said he new nothing past the mother and fathers name.So i got them and went to the PD i had no intentions to stud when i relied he new nothing about  his dog.It  was not on the PD any way . I no their is very little chance that his  dog been from the breeder as mine because their pedigree is well known .decline of the gsd is not only their because people breed bad dogs .you may have the best pedigree but if you do not know this you do deserve to have a litter of pups or even the dog you have . what im am saying is take responsible for every litter you breed be honest with you self and the line of dog you are breeding .  Don't stud your dog for a quick buck .When you stud your dog you are as responsible the breeder for the good or damage you do to your pedigree what ever it is.

Food for thought.

Is there really a decline of the GSD character or is our todays digital mindset expect the breed to perform like an artikel. Meaning we buy a dog and expect it to be exactly what we bought it for like some devise we buy in a store.

I am sure we all had/have our top dogs in the past, present or future, does it mean that we simply go out and buy another one.

The GSD has earned its reputation by being the most versatile breed on the planet. Therefore it shouldend be judged on a singel speciality, because other breeds might perform that much better.

Like comparing a swiss knife with a bowe knife.  Specialization leeds to comparison.

  

What do posters think about this show line male doing his turn at the 2014 Sieger Show.  Look him up on Youtube up his name is Mentos v Osterberger Land.  Sorry I do not have the link.

Mackenzie