The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 60

Prager -  absolutely on the button with your last few posts.

Mackenzie

people use the term hard too much

I have met a lot of hard dogs that were total garbage and could not fight if their lives depended on it, ive met soft dogs that would tear a person apart

you w ant decoy hard not handler hard, dogs strong in civil drive and stay in the fight long

handler hard = garbage

decoy hard = good

I don´t get the "line" theory - Rolf Osnabrücker Land is present in ( that´s a guess only ) 90% of all showlines today.
Rolf goes back to Hettel Uckermark ( almost 100% of our dogs have Hettel in their peds ).
Troll bösen Nachbarschaft is 17 generations far from Hettel, and Troll was born in 1986  
These dogs are VEEEERY far away -
And thinking about genetics, I never heard about "( extremly ) genetically dominant dogs", and by believing in actual genetics, that´s almost impossible.

Very good informative posts, even though Prager and Duke disagree on certain points.

Prager,

Thank you for taking part in this important topic, a question please

I followed your posts on lines and breeding techniques, I remeber you explaining in an old post how to strengthen or re establish a weakened trait by use of breeding in-line which has/had produced that trait and well known for it.

My question,

Put aside your opinion of modern show GSD structure, can we strengthen/re-establish/rebring-in certain traits in the show GSD using the technique of in-line breeding (we have three lines in the show GSD)? traits like protectiveness/solid nerves/courage.

Thanks

Ibrahim

no problem Hans, i know your pitch

Ibrahim, according to Hans theory, yes, but in reality NO, if it is not there geneticly, you will not get it back even if you get it 50 times on your pedigree 20 generations back

what does super dominance have to do with it? a dog handler aggressive or dominant towards its owner isn't impresive either to me thats a garbage dog also. Or dominant towards other dogs? I have a czech bitch not sure if shes dominant but if a dog large dog trys to fight her she goes after their eyes and latches on or latches on to their throats to the point where she can kill another LARGE dog in a few minutes even LGD leave her alone I have never seen a dog fight like that you would think she was bred to fight. Again its not that impressive because it is a useless skill unless she is protecting chickens.

Optic, a "handler hard" dog is not the same thing as a handler aggressive dog. The first will take corrections and keep going and the second one will keep you on your toes while training. I believe that good dogs have a degree of handler aggression in them in a sense that they will not deal with BS corrections. I have owned several handler aggressive dogs and its not fun, but, it keeps you "honest".

Dominance is part of every pack and every dog has a degree of it, its not garbage, its part of survival.

who said the two were the same? I was just reading about people mentioning handler aggressive dogs in the past being sometimes seen as hard or something good etc..  I agree a good dog will only take so much abuse before it turns on you but thats not handler aggression thats just what every dog or animal should do.  Handler aggressive to me is something nothign like that.  I know if i started to beat my dogs they would turn on me they just have that in them. Im not abusive though.  I have had dogs who have come close to nailing or who have bit  me or threatening  but none i would consider handler aggressive.  I have seen a real handler aggressive dog and nothing i have had is nothing like that not even close.  Few of the mature dogs I do have now will get aggressive with me if i started kicking and punching them out of the blue.  I agree that is a good trait I always just saw it as dogs who had some sort of self worth.  I would never have a true handler aggressive dog.

The above poster mentioned excessive dominance? I agree dominace in a protection or guarding breed is good we dont want submissive dogs by nature for any protection breed like they would for a fighting breed or hunting breed like a pitbull etc..

The toughest dog i ever saw strange was seemed really sweet but when worked in protection was the biggest monster ever.  Was a total normal every day dog but soon as this dog would turn on became possessed by the devil or something. Would constantly hurt the  decoys even when in body suits. Was not my dog came from quebec I wish i remember the breeder. Was not even PURE working line. The head of ring sport for my country even was shocking and said he had never met any dog bite and fight like this bitch.  This is someone who has trained police dogs and is married to a police k9 officer.

Prager: "Studs, if breeding is done correctly are selected  as a breed improvers because of their genetic dominance,  which often influence hundreds dogs in 1st generation and thousands of dogs in generations afterwards."

GENETIC DOMINANCE, not DOMINANT BEHAVIOR

That´s why I said, I don´t get it. Genetics always follow the same rules (please, no examples of any mutations in this context ).
Genetic dominance ?

oh i see susie i would like to know more also :)

The problem is you see some dogs get over estimated by the show they put on and their size muscles and maybe how hard their  grips are but some get underestimated. Its just so hard to know which ones are good and which ones arent' so many factors play part.  Breders are trying to cater to the public. A lot of these strong dogs your average person cannot handle.

BUT there are a lot of very tough dogs out there a novice with  some working dog experience who is pro active in training and not a basket case can handle.  Producing these dogs that seem to have it all is probably what is really hard? A pet, a serious protector, worker, easy to handle.  Not that common.  Seems like its either the pet or the serious protector/police not both.   But both does exist in europe I am sure.  It more the talent of the breeder I am guessing.