hard dogs - Page 6

topthat, You certainly are getting some opinions on your thread. In all this we got away from your request. Who produces hard dogs? I am not that informed on who has what is best and can only share from limited exposure. Bungalow had good dogs. Personally I like Czech dogs, but can't help you with specifics. A point I did want to make to you though is regardless of what YOU determine is a hard dog, you have alot of different traits to address with a breeder. Determine what it is YOU want in a dog. Do you want a dog that will be like old Jake, from Gustav's post? You can have a hard, hard dog that is ok with children by the way as long as good interactions took place along the way in early life of the dog. Take a look at all of the definitions of hard and decide for your self. My only advice would be stick with the winners. Go with breeders that breed for hardness, courage, dogs that can take a correction, etc. etc. If you already know what hardness is and are comfortable with your definition then please forgive, this was not meant to talk down to you. Do lots of research, talk to lots of breeders that have web sites, look at over seas kennels and talk to them. And before you buy come to this site and share what you plan to do so others can share their experiences with this breeder. Good luck. Gustav, loved the story of old Jake, I love his strong will. You don't see many like him now. Happy Valentines day to all

topthat, sorry, just read your second post. You do know what you are looking for. I should read all posts before jumping in. My time is too limited these days. Good luck

Handler agression and hardness are two different things. Handler agression is usually, but not always attributable to a dog being sharp. Additionally, agression of any sort is not hardness.

This is definately an open ended and "loaded" question. Hard could be defined 10 ways by 10 people. Good discussion though, alot to be learned here. Perspectives may differ as they should really. Topthat, gives a brief and general description of what he's/she's looking for, I think those dogs do still exist, I think they exist with good temperaments, and the appropriate "on/off" switch. We have a few in our club, they run down hard, bite hard, and bite harder during the fight and they "win" the prize. But off the field they are appropriate and social, Confident trustworthy companions. the one "sharp" dog I have, (I'm using sharp not hard on purpose) will now and then desire to turn and bite me out of the "game" of it all, he never does so but does rake his teeth accross my hand/arm now and then, He's not being aggressive with me, he's just "ON" if you will. He will accept correction from me but would not tolerate it from anyone else. Not on the field anyway. At home he is a loved family member that is compliant even to the youngest an 8 yr. old. But at the same time a "bad guy" who would attempt a kick at this dog, would be received with a "ThankYou for that leg" and one h**l of a fight would ensue. good Luck Topthat I hope you find the dogs you desire, I do beleive they still exist, it just may take some searching to find them. Good Posts everyone, Nice to see so much information on this topic. :-)

Maybe this will help: Hardness One could not talk about Schutzhund and in particular the man work, without mentioning the degree of hardness a dog possesses. Some trainers identify hardness as those dogs which need severe corrections and methods to achieve a response. Others equate hardness with stubborness, found in those dogs that oppose correction. In fact, no dog is "stubborn" or enjoys being punished. There are no canine masochists, only poor trainers, so this understanding of hardness is not correct. A hard dog is one that has the ability to recover from, put behind him and even forget unpleasant experiences and situations very quickly; an important asset in any training program. It is quite possible for a "soft" dog to display many other excellent Schutzhund traits. However, it's important for the trainer to recognize such an animal's limitations and apply his skill, tact, and patience to compensate for this deficit by utilizing the dog's stronger points. Certainly you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or a lion out of a coward, but if a trainer is competent, he can make much out of very little. (An advantage if one is looking at a competition dog, but misleading if one is looking for a breeding prospect.) With a softer dog it's important to give it more time to adjust to unpleasant situations and to go carefully when introducing new or stressful experiences, especially if there might be some pain or fright occurring. The harder a dog is, the quicker it is to adjust and shrug off any negative experiences. Therefore the harder dog is the one most suitable for novices or mediocre-to-average trainers who lack the fine sense needed to fulfill the potential of a weaker animal.

This is an Armin Winkler article with different definitions. It's too long to copy. Not a big fan, but it's a view point. http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/protection/terms1.html

Spook VERY WELL Put !!!!! Excellent Post, and Exactly what our trainers have conveyed to us, regarding differences in dogs Hard/Soft, Specifically Recovery. :-)

hello spook, I am in agreement with your posts, especially your first post on resilience through adversity. Short and to the point. My point was to attempt to explain that because you have a dog with great drive, this in its self does not equal hardness. Or, a dog that takes a correction well is necessarily a hard dog. A dog thats handler aggressive does not make a hard dog. Some feel because they have a dog with great drive they have a "hard dog". That was my only point. I doubt that we see hardness much differently, or at least I will say that I have agreed with most you have written here. I think if you will read the last paragraph on my second post here it says basically the same thing. In any case I do feel we have a different definition of sharpness. Obviously any sharpness motivated by fear is not what we want. Thanks for your time.

spook, I agree with a lot of what you say, but when you lose absolutes you lose me. "aggression of any sort is not hardness" There are extremely hard dogs that also happen to be aggressive (either to handler or to people in general). Dogs are complex by nature of genetics AND environment. You can take a mix of those variables and have many causes of specific behavoirs. The definition you gave for hardness fits Jake to a Tee! He was resilient,(nine years old and still working),put behind him and recover from unpleasant experiences,(after corrections for blowing through the wire he would resume the trail,) and forget unpleasant situations very quickly(after appropriate correction for handler aggression he would still work the track effectively). Yet this dog was definitely AGGRESSIVE,but extremely effective in what he was trained for. (in his job a mistake is not recoverable). Spook, handler aggression, dog aggression, or people aggression don't mean hard dog, but there are hard dogs that have this trait fot whatever reason, I have seen too many.

This is a very interesting discussion. I agree with Spooks definition of hardness as a dogs ability to recover / bounce back from adversity / stress / corrections ect. I do not believe aggression has any thing to do with it, that is a separate trait but it is naturally possible for as hard dog to be aggressive. The discussion of 'fight drive' if there is such a drive, is also interesting and I would like to hear more peoples opinions on that. I think the dogs that show a lot of fight, has a very high prey drive. I look upon it as having to take down large possibly dangerous prey (like buffalo). It's still prey but it can fight back so you have to treat it with more respect than say a rabbit lol Some dogs really seem to enjoy this fight with the helper.