so how good were the old dogs? - Page 6

I do know the Dobermans of old YOU had to be confident to handle one.  If not, they knew it and you wouldn't stand a chance.  They had very strong personalities, and if you carried it to far with a doberman you didn't know,  you would know it shortly.  and that was not the exception but the rule.  now to have a doberman like that is more the exception (depending on the line.)

Keith, I might just do that! :) But lets clear one thing up, I did not say that ALL aggression is fear based. Aggression in appropriate situations is an exhibition of total confidence and strength! With out seeing the dog yet, it sounds more like dominance you are speaking of. Dominance can and does produce aggression, but a confidant dog does not feel the need to dominate everything, he knows he's got it covered. Dominance is a totally different subject to me. I've trained with Nate, in fact I was in Mike's club while Nate was just starting out and learning. He is a good man. In fact that's where Apollo and Vogue got great reviews from "Flinks" (at his seminar there at their club)

There is still a need for dogs to protect yards or houses from all intruders ( not the owners ) In your opinion does the GSD have a place in that if not why and what breed?

Paul

the dogs of yore were good enough to produce today's dogs. When I got into the breed their were still distint herding lines. At that time these lines stood out from the show lines or working lines as a different route for breeding. The thought was you went to the old herding lines for stamina and easier to train animals. Today you do not see seperate blood lines doing HGH work. My logic is that 110 years ago all GSD were herding trained dogs and then there was a movement towards Schutzhund titled dogs for breeding because herding was a more difficult sport to follow than Schutzhund [ 200 sheep to work compared to the use of one helper, one hundred acres  of pasture to train in compared to using one sport field] If what i witnesed in my early years holds true the blood line are shaped to reflect the need or purpose of the current breeders and trainers. I believe more positive things have happened in my GSD life time than bad. I would compare positively the amount of good training I see and good dogs over yester year.

i only asked becuase so many breeders i see both talk about and breed back on old famous dogs like there has been no progress or evolution in the breed. in other work venues/breeds this is not typically the case, the old dogs are done and dusted and serve no more purpose for the breed.  the GSD overall hardly fits the bill for a true working dog in the vast majority of owenership scenarios imo,  the continual hark back to the old is what puzzled mt among the gsd and many gsd breeders.

Well, I figure if old timers keep going back to these lines or dogs linebred on these older lines, let them do it. Let the newer people stay with the new and improved lines.  That way everyone feels good.....after all feelings and likes have become very important in the breed.

The thing about appropriate situations for aggressive behavior is that it varies according to who's witnessing the situation. I had a trainer evaluate my now 8 year old GSD, even though I told him my dog is a jerk and won't take to him staring him down, for his evaluation he stepped in and leaned forward and stared my dog down within seconds of my dog coming out of the truck. He asked me not to intervene unless it went south, my dog jumped up, no barking and carrying on, grabbed him by the shoulder/neck area, (the trainer called it a mouth punch), and put him on the ground, then scuffed dirt on him before I could tell my dog to stop and come to me, it happened so fast. You could have ten people watching that situation and they could come up with ten opinions about what took place. The trainer considered it his own fault, and felt he was lucky my dog just warned him and listened when I called him to me. Some might think he's crazy and out of control.... either way, I like my dog and I hope that I can find another GSD with a similar way when the time comes

In my eyes there is very little gray in terms of appropriate aggression. I had a dog with a hair trigger and loved him too. He did get into the gray areas when people would be acting weird in his eyes. That included those who were telling a story in a very lively manner, waving their arms and yelling.... he did look at that as aggression towards him and me. Although he did obey when I told him it was OK. It is probably unfair to depend on a dog to judge that type of behavior and in this case it would be up to the owner to let people know they had better not do the jumping around waving arms thing. lol  But in most cases it's more cut and dried.

Scuffed dirt on him?? That's HILARIOUS!!

Did he do it like a male dog does when he's finished taking a dump? 

Glad the guy wasn't hurt!

Gustav: The breed was more serious in the past as a whole, nerves were strong, and bodies were more lithe and athletic overall


This is the myth being perpetuated, where is the proof. Today your K9 deploys or your SchIII dog trials it could be televised around the world in minutes for all to form opions.
Where were these dogs? Behind the iron curtain that was drawn across Europe for 40yrs, even harder to find information. The dogs that were chained on the Iron Wall were reknowned for being very social.
Nervous dogs were chained up (as were most dogs) and appeared to have solid nerves and structure. People never insisted on cuddling dogs and taking them into coffee shops.
There were great dogs, great breeders even great trainers in the past but today its better only no sexy legendary myths created around dogs because of the ability to for us to transfer information. There was just as many crooks back then as there is today.

Dogs more willing to attempt the impossible, scaling walls etc. yeah right or option B don't attempt and I'll kick you within an inch of you life. Dogs as people, dogs as animals, whatever, cruelty and abuse is just that, it wasn't very different for children.
Have a look at these ferocious beasts from the 1930's;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM

Regards

Ronin