DDR, Czech and West Germany working bloodline - Page 6

BTW, I understand LE agency's discouragement with many WGWL's, and agree that they are generally lacking also.  Just saying a dog with high prey drive does not mean it needs to lack courage and hardness.

Slamdunc .

The Leerburg link provided by Hans is by Ed Frawley;  and was written
a dozen years ago.     I would be very interested in what some of our
regular contacts actually living in Germany could say to bring things up
to date on the current relations between the Police, the SV, and hundsport
participants ?

There is merit in what  Darryl, Slamdunc, and Hans is saying philosophically. But the philosophy has to translate to application on consistent basis to be valid, IMO. There is nothing wrong with prey whatsoever, when there are sufficient elements of NERVE and FIGHT! I trained with six Mals yesterday along with some GS, that were all police dogs. All these dogs are academy trained and dual purpose. The prey drive is very much needed in the scent training which is critical part of all police work. If you watch the mali's work, it is very very easy for them to switch from prey to fight. This is why they and DS do so much head shaking on the bite. Over the top prey for sure...but easy transition to fight. Sometimes not as clearheaded as I like but sufficient that they meet standard training requirements. With the WGWL GS this is what I have found too much of....some lines as the prey drive goes over the top the fight element has decreased and the dog is stuck on grip....no fight back whatsoever, with other WGWL that the prey drive is over the top and the fight transition takes place also, you often have issues of focus, extreme handler aggression. The seemless transition abilities of moving to fight, retaining nerve, and over the top prey in the German Shepherd is very elusive. Sure, we all know a WGWL dog that can do it, but not enough of them to make them a source of choice as Han pointed out. It's not about money either, cause cops will pay 7500 dollars for good green dogs in a heartbeat these days. It's about not enough available of the sport type dogs will pass the standards. This is what I am seeing these days.

I did not see anybody knocking down prey. I was talking against extreme prey and extreme prey only ( with low defense) in GSD. I firmly believe that optimally  prey : defense should be in 50:50 ratio in a German shepherd. 
That is relative ratio. I also like to describe the absolute amount of these drives. I do it in scale of 1-10 where 1 is no drive and 10 is the highest drive in history of dogs. 
I believe that the GSD should be about 5:5 to 8:8.  Anything below or above is detriment to the versatility of the breed. 
Somehow I feel that I gave a wrong impression or may have misspeak.  For clarity sake I would like to say that in former post it  was absolutely not my intention to be advocating against prey but I was against dogs which are  extremely prey driven or  prey one sidedly and lacking defense in relative ratio and in absolute numbers or against breeding dogs with high prey and low defense on purpose and training methods which utilize prey as a crutch to lack of defense  and that for the sake of winning in the sport  competition. ( I know that the sentence is somewhat convoluted. I hope that you get the jest of it though. 
Prey ratio of 8:3 ( prey : defense) is what we see these days in sport dogs and in 90% of GSD. That is what I am against.  
I am also against breeding dogs with extreme prey ( above 8)  or defense for that matter.   
Prager Hans

Hundmuter 
the current situation is getting progressively worse then it was 10 years ago.
Prager Hans. 

Sorry Hans but you would say that, as you put the link up.
I am hoping more people will comment;  and we can get
maybe some current statistics, even ?

Prager, I never took you to be advocating against prey....frankly I an seeing a lot of what you described. That's why I differentiate prey and over the top prey. The over the top prey GS are often unable to transition from one drive to another being stuck in prey....but good strong prey drive is an asset for working dogs as others and yourself have said. But over the top prey drive can be very successful in the sport world with good handler and training.

Dear sir ,

What you expect actually . 15 MINUTES ???
You didn't buy a Computer but a living creature .
2 times 5 minutes a day is already more than enough .
You know 15 Minutes playing or tracking is already a very long time .
And than you ask about the different between DDR lines and Western or Czech lines .
I should advice you by an alarm system and sell your puppy to someone who really 
love and understand dogs .
Sorry but i get sic when i read something like this .
YOU BUY A PUPPY DOG !!!!!!!!!!!!!  NOT A COMPUTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Best regards

Rudy Peersman

Belgium 

@ Rudy: FYKI  I am a dog lover and I always seek information so I can gain my knowledge to improve myself on this WL GSD
to be honest I am a beginner on this working line issue  but it does not mean I am a total idiot who is capable of making my puppy life miserable  I have had dogs since I was a little boy.  I am tottaly aware that puppy is NOT computer.  I am sure everybody who is emotionally undisturbed knows about it.   I really dont mind being  called ignorance but willing to learn.  In your opinion. Was it wrong for beginner like me seeking advice from experienced or professional people in this forum?