GSDs back in the days - question - Page 6

It is not that SL dogs are incapable of honestly working. The problem has occurred because too many breeders didn't "care" if the dogs were capable. Because it wasn't a priority, it was simply not required of their dogs.
Just as stability or calm temperament has also been replaced by "drive madness" in some WL dogs.
If more breeders would "require" more from their breedings....all bloodlines would benefit.

I'm not posting to argue point with you....it really doesn't matter to me (personally), because I am truly confident & comfortable with our dogs and breedings...(.perhaps because we do require more.)
I simply posted, because it was stated that "there are no SL dogs working as PoliceK9s or Military"...and that statement was not factual.

Robin

 Quote: Not asking you to blindly believe anything. I am not making an arguement, just a statement. You may think that I am just a goof and that is absolutely fine with me. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to politely and respectfully disagree.

Thanks for the videos. I don't know how to politely tell you that I have a completely different idea of excellent. The dogs are well below what I would want to see being used for police work. This is not personal, You are probably a real nice guy, so do not take this like I am just being an ass. The fact that you got these dogs to pass police certs was due to I am going to say to some really nice training. 

I would rate these dogs as well below average. I don't think that they would even bother to look for the drugs if the handler did not encourage them and make them look. I want a dog to work a lot easier than that. Drugs stink, so it is not hard for a dog once they know the odor. The likelyhood that the dogs would have kept working without non stop work from the handler is iffy at best.

I do think it is cool that you put the video up. Many people do not even do that. 

 Quote: Just as stability or calm temperament has also been replaced by "drive madness" in some WL dogs.
If more breeders would "require" more from their breedings....all bloodlines would benefit.

Seriously ? Where are you seeing this drive madness ? I see dogs all over the place and I do not see any drive madness. I already spoke on what I think of the dogs. Not anything I would use. Please feel free to point out where you see all this "drive madness". Be specific please.

Jeff,
I have nothing to gain by your personal approval....so honestly I have no need or desire for it.
If you are actually ignorant to the fact that many WL dogs suffer in "drives" also.....than you surprise even me.

You comment on the videos is actually humorous.  Of course the dogs knew where the drugs were.....what you fail to comprehend is that they were not allowed to target ANY drugs, before they were TOLD to.
They were forced/made to "check" everywhere their handler(s) requested them to check....even though the dogs perfectly knew where the stash was.
This particular Training Facility (highly respected) requires absolute control over their K9s.
They must search, track & cover all obstacles, walls, terrain, cars & buildings...even though the dogs absolutely know where they are hidden.
They are taught this way because ..(I asked)..the trainers do not want them to possibly overlook ANY hidden drugs or weapons.   Calm & accurate is their method of training.
These dogs were trained to bite, search & track under any circumstances...and under complete control.

To be fair....I needed to visit the dogs while they were being trained, to see for myself.
I also watched the K9 Police Olympics they competed in.....
I could care less if these dogs were from SL or WL....actually I own both.  The dogs have several "busts" under their belts in their new jobs...and we are proud of them.

I'm sure you will feel the need to contradict something from my post...so be it.

 Quote: If you are actually ignorant to the fact that many WL dogs suffer in "drives" also.....than you surprise even me.

I have no idea what you are about. I have working line dogs and none of them suffer.

Quote: They must search, track & cover all obstacles, walls, terrain, cars & buildings...even though the dogs absolutely know where they are hidden.
They are taught this way because ..(I asked)..the trainers do not want them to possibly overlook ANY hidden drugs or weapons.

You don't see any contradictions in this statement ?

No Jeff....sorry...no controversy.
Specific drugs have different potency's....such as Marijuana is easily detected, and in large quantities can sometimes cause the K9s to possibly "bypass" other drugs in smaller quantities....especially when they are "green dogs".
If the trainers teach them to search everywhere calmly and methodically, they have a greater success record in busts, and less chance of their Police handlers being surprised by hidden weapons. (again, I had to ask this question because I did not understand at the time). I actually expected the dogs to immediately find the drugs & weapons, until I was informed that they were purposely searching in this fashion.
We watched the dogs search every piece of vehicles, from the doors, side panels, trunks, hoods and undercarriage.....to simply find drugs almost in plain view.  It was very pain staking for the dogs.
They searched on the streets (in busy traffic) for human decoys, through parking lots full of people..
They were required to chase & apprehend decoys in their moving vehicles, through obstacles, and in different types of buildings.
All the dogs that went through to graduate, honestly earned their canine shields....these dogs were both WL & SL.

I appreciated the work & dedication that went into training, after I watched these K9s go through the actual total process of certification.

 Quote: Specific drugs have different potency's....such as Marijuana is easily detected, and in large quantities can sometimes cause the K9s to possibly "bypass" other drugs in smaller quantities....especially when they are "green dogs".

That would be a training issue for a dog with little hunt drive, as well as a training issue period.

To Jeff Oehlsen, thank you for replying to my post. Unfortunately, your comments are nothing of substance to stimulate debate but just the views of someone who hasn’t yet realised his views are not the only game in town. As usual when someone’s views differ they are answered with the usual demented response of insult and profanity.

As for naming and shaming that is something that doesn’t work, particularly, as in this case, the readers are from so many different locations and, therefore, none the wiser. As for the sector that Jeff thinks should be named, they know the problems. Some will try to do something about it but others will never even try.

The video’s that Jeff craves to see reflect only a few moments in time and do not cover all the aspects of a dogs character and, therefore, a video should not be taken as the means of proof of a dog’s overall ability to work. Even top dogs have off days.  A dog's ability to work is influenced by the skills of the trainers and, sometimes, a change of trainer can change an ordinary dog to one of a much higher level of ability. 

Something else that Jeff has to realise is that in relation to aggression I have not said, or, implied, that all dogs are over the top in aggression. The word that I used was “many” which in no way can be taken as “all dogs”, or, the “majority of dogs“.

Mackenzie

 Quote: As for naming and shaming that is something that doesn’t work, particularly, as in this case, the readers are from so many different locations and, therefore, none the wiser.

This is where your argument is a sham. 

Quote:  but just the views of someone who hasn’t yet realised his views are not the only game in town. As usual when someone’s views differ they are answered with the usual demented response of insult and profanity.

There is a standard for the breed that was supposed to be maintained. Where is the flaw there ? Where is the dementia ? The insult was yours to begin with, if I remember correctly with your views of over the top aggression. I have yet to see this, and how would this be a "naming and shaming" ?? Calling you on your bs is what I did. Thats all, no need to get all hurt about it. Still would like to know where all the dogs you saw like that were, as it is something I would like to see.

Quote: 
The video’s that Jeff craves to see reflect only a few moments in time

Why would I "crave" this ? You crack me up. The other amusing part is that you do not have to be a genius to figure out what a dog is. It is not like I have seen three dogs or claim to be the all knowing, however, the dogs in the video are substandard. Their interest waned fairly quickly, and left on their own, would probably quit. I also know that the publics perception of what a "K9" is, and reality are often very very different. 

I am curious if the dogs were purchased, or donated.

Quote: A dog's ability to work is influenced by the skills of the trainers and, sometimes, a change of trainer can change an ordinary dog to one of a much higher level of ability.

There are many people out there with this belief system. A dog's ability to work is within the dog. His drives count for a lot. There are many trainers out there that can polish a turd, but I would not want to give a dog that only sort of works, and only works to a standard with really good training to someone who would count on the dog in times of stress. 


Quote: Something else that Jeff has to realise is that in relation to aggression I have not said, or, implied, that all dogs are over the top in aggression. The word that I used was “many” which in no way can be taken as “all dogs”, or, the “majority of dogs“.

Still love to hear about these "many" dogs. I think you just made this up. Now you can argue and bla bla bla, but it really is all the straw man argument without some sort of proof. 

Jeff , let me make one thing clear and that is that I am not the slightest bit hurt by anything that you write.

You have said that my argument is a sham. A statement. Why is it a sham? Is it just because you think differently? Someone else on this thread made the comment that my comments are true.

With regard to your statement “There is a standard for the breed that was supposed to be maintained“ I am in complete agreement with you. If you have read anything else that I have written you will see that I have supported that point of view.

As for insults coming from me I think you need to read your post 3rd Oct to see where they began.

I do not think that you really understand what you have written previously when you asked me to name clubs and animals. Is that not naming and shaming? Your comment “Enough of the straw man arguement. Bust out the clubs and the names of the dogs. Hell take video. I would love to see it, and would be interested in breeding to one of these dogs in the future“. Is that not asking for naming and shaming ? You also appear to want video evidence. You are already “cracked up”, no need for help from me.

I agree with you that drives are within the dog but only up to the dogs level of incompetence. It takes a good trainer to bring them out and maximise them to bring the dog on further. No dog is born knowing all the controls and pressures it will be subjected to as a working dog and that is why it needs good trainers.

As for what I have seen I would like to point out that I am fortunate to live where I do because I have been to clubs in the UK, Germany, Holland, Spain and one in Italy. I have built up an experience over forty years. I have also been to shows and witnessed much during that time. Have you been able to do the same?

As for the things that you have not seen does not mean they do not exist, or, that they are a fabrication. I have no further comment to make to someone who is so narrow minded.

Mackenzie