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by AndyG on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
No, this is just a short abstract. I am providing him with more information and details. I will keep you posted.
by Abby Normal on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
Perhaps you would reproduce here what you send to him, and his reponse. Why would you need to send him any more details than you have included in this thread? It's accurate and comprehensive, isn't it?
by AndyG on 19 March 2012 - 19:03
Why? Because every time when I try to provide more details, you take one sentence and change it completely to get an opposite meaning. You need examples? Here you are:
1) I stated several times that he had signs of DM before yet we could not see them. You change it as DM cannot get as sudden and the dog didn't have DM indicators before "collapse"
2) I stated that he was walking stairs with our help at the beginning and later alone, while we always secured him behind. You "Would I recommend to others that they allow a DM dog to go up and down the stairs without assistance". But he was not doing it without assistance.
3) Your quote "But more importantly your dog went down very suddenly without apparently showing the obvious signs as just described, because you couldn’t have missed those, and was back on his feet again soon after. That isn’t indicative of DM". Again it looks as I need to make you an excuse every time as why we could not see these signs. How can you make any statements what we could and what we couldn't?
4) You take a single word "supersensitive" from my description and post your conclusion that it is hardly possible for DM. In my original post I clearly stated that we were thinking that his foot is supersensitive, because could not explain his inability to step on by other reasons. Again, completely opposite what I was saying.
5) I am not even talking about expressing the bladder. It has nothing to do with DM or not DM. When a heavy dog cannot support on his leg it has to be done. It is not an indicator of DM.
Finally, I am very tired of the whole mess on that thread and not willing to participate in that discussion anymore. I posted our experience with DM or whatever what diagnosed as DM. It was quite positive as well as many cases of Dr Clemmons. Give it it take it.
Dr Clemmons opinion will be posted as I get it.
1) I stated several times that he had signs of DM before yet we could not see them. You change it as DM cannot get as sudden and the dog didn't have DM indicators before "collapse"
2) I stated that he was walking stairs with our help at the beginning and later alone, while we always secured him behind. You "Would I recommend to others that they allow a DM dog to go up and down the stairs without assistance". But he was not doing it without assistance.
3) Your quote "But more importantly your dog went down very suddenly without apparently showing the obvious signs as just described, because you couldn’t have missed those, and was back on his feet again soon after. That isn’t indicative of DM". Again it looks as I need to make you an excuse every time as why we could not see these signs. How can you make any statements what we could and what we couldn't?
4) You take a single word "supersensitive" from my description and post your conclusion that it is hardly possible for DM. In my original post I clearly stated that we were thinking that his foot is supersensitive, because could not explain his inability to step on by other reasons. Again, completely opposite what I was saying.
5) I am not even talking about expressing the bladder. It has nothing to do with DM or not DM. When a heavy dog cannot support on his leg it has to be done. It is not an indicator of DM.
Finally, I am very tired of the whole mess on that thread and not willing to participate in that discussion anymore. I posted our experience with DM or whatever what diagnosed as DM. It was quite positive as well as many cases of Dr Clemmons. Give it it take it.
Dr Clemmons opinion will be posted as I get it.
by Abby Normal on 19 March 2012 - 22:03
No AndyG, it isn't me that changes things, it is you. Re the stairs, originally you said:
First, under our control - supporting his back, then completely alone.
You are talking about expressing the bladder 'we had to press the stomach to express the bladder'. Not 'hold the dog up so he could empty his bladder'. There is a world of difference between the two and one of them is not an indicator of DM.
Therefore, I was just curious as to how what you might say to Dr Clemmons might differ to what you have put here, as you keep slightly altering what you say. I hope you state Golo's symptoms honestly to him and offer the opinion he gives you back here as honestly as he gives it.
It isn't give it or take it, people must know if your experience relates to a dog which was likely to have had DM or not. Otherwise it is incredibly misleading, albeit unintentionally so, and gives false hope which is cruel, as if the disease itself wasn't cruel enough.
First, under our control - supporting his back, then completely alone.
You are talking about expressing the bladder 'we had to press the stomach to express the bladder'. Not 'hold the dog up so he could empty his bladder'. There is a world of difference between the two and one of them is not an indicator of DM.
Therefore, I was just curious as to how what you might say to Dr Clemmons might differ to what you have put here, as you keep slightly altering what you say. I hope you state Golo's symptoms honestly to him and offer the opinion he gives you back here as honestly as he gives it.
It isn't give it or take it, people must know if your experience relates to a dog which was likely to have had DM or not. Otherwise it is incredibly misleading, albeit unintentionally so, and gives false hope which is cruel, as if the disease itself wasn't cruel enough.
by AndyG on 19 March 2012 - 23:03
Abby, from the beginning I have been stating exactly the same things. It was you who tried to find a different meaning in tossing my words.
Let's take the "blader" statement. I know only one way of doing that. You stand behind, put your hands across his urinary tract and lift him up. This way you make pressure on his stomach and release the bladder. You don't hold the dog but lift him up, while the dog stands on the front legs. You mentioned two different ways. What is the second one? How do you think I was doing that based on my statement?
Again, I posted that story being not prepared for a police investigation or a harsh interrogation. If you could not understand some of my statements or these were not expressed clear enough, it would be much more useful to ask rather than state the opposite.
I am curious, - why are you continuing this discussion? You obviously don't believe this story, have your own opinion of DM options and will be questioning anything I will post here from Dr Clemmons comments. Whatever I post from Dr.Clemmons feedback, you will state that it is not true. Will you?
Let's take the "blader" statement. I know only one way of doing that. You stand behind, put your hands across his urinary tract and lift him up. This way you make pressure on his stomach and release the bladder. You don't hold the dog but lift him up, while the dog stands on the front legs. You mentioned two different ways. What is the second one? How do you think I was doing that based on my statement?
Again, I posted that story being not prepared for a police investigation or a harsh interrogation. If you could not understand some of my statements or these were not expressed clear enough, it would be much more useful to ask rather than state the opposite.
I am curious, - why are you continuing this discussion? You obviously don't believe this story, have your own opinion of DM options and will be questioning anything I will post here from Dr Clemmons comments. Whatever I post from Dr.Clemmons feedback, you will state that it is not true. Will you?
by starrchar on 20 March 2012 - 00:03
Andy, Regarding the bladder, what Abby said is there is a difference between supporting the dog while he urinates on his own so he doesn't fall over and holding him in such a way to assist in expressing his bladder. DM dogs become incontinent in the later stages of the disease, but they do not have a problem with emptying the bladder. Dogs with paralysis due to FCE or spinal Injury need help emptying the bladder such as you described with Golo. Right now I assist Shelby by supporting her with a sling/harness so she can squat without falling, but she eliminates urine on her own with no problem.
by AndyG on 20 March 2012 - 01:03
starchar, yes he could urinate on his own, but could not stand. Also, i don't know about Shelby, but Golo could never urinate at once.... he was looking for special places with special smells and "marked" a lot of spots during a walk. If it was not a "right place" he could keep for a long time. I had a feeling that, when it happened, he could not adapt to the new rules straight away. After he started walking a litle bit (knuckling), even with our support, it was not a problem. To make sure that is is clear enough: Golo could not urinate sitting or lying - we had to keep him standing. Our vet explained how to lift him to express the bladder quickly - what we were doing.
I totally understand similarities of FCE or spinal injuries, however these were ruled out by all vets we saw. As I mentioned before, I wished it was something like that and not DM. Vets also suggested his left leg amputation and putting him on a cart, though admitted that it may not work for a so heavy dog (40.5 kg). That time we had only three options left: give him a miserable low quality life, euthanasia or try do do something quickly - to see if it works.
I totally understand similarities of FCE or spinal injuries, however these were ruled out by all vets we saw. As I mentioned before, I wished it was something like that and not DM. Vets also suggested his left leg amputation and putting him on a cart, though admitted that it may not work for a so heavy dog (40.5 kg). That time we had only three options left: give him a miserable low quality life, euthanasia or try do do something quickly - to see if it works.
by Abby Normal on 20 March 2012 - 07:03
AndyG
No, I will be most interested in Dr Clemmons response.....I am surprised that you haven't heard back from him yet. I had a very quick response from him.
You talk of harsh interrogation and questioning. I don't think I have been especially harsh. Precise yes. Again, you fail to grasp why it is so important to establish whether or not your dog was likely to have had DM. It is because you are making extravagant claims as to what can be accomplished. It is a cruel disease and I will say again, it is even more cruel to lead people to believe they can have their dog 'back' with DM, in they way you did with Golo. If you didn't make these claims frankly no one would really be overly concerned what your dog had, and would just be content to sympathise with you over the loss of your dog. As it is, their is a different purpose to your post. You haven't helped people's attitudes by implying that everyone else 'failed' to do everything or even anything for their dogs if they didn't achieve results 'as good' as you.
The only way FCE can be ruled out is by having an MRI. As another poster mentioned you had two teams of vets on this yet neither suggested an MRI to rule out FCE? Or did you just decide not to go that route?
Amputation - that's something that hasn't been mentioned before. Maybe you should mention that to Dr Clemmons, even though it wasn't mentioned here previously.
While focussing on the identity of the disease, what I probably haven't said enough about is that I do think you did a fabulous job with Golo. You had the dedication, courage and commitment to get him through it and get back a marvellous quality of life for him, and all credit to you for that. I am sure it could help people with dogs that suffer with the disease that he had, when we can more clearly identify what that was.
No, I will be most interested in Dr Clemmons response.....I am surprised that you haven't heard back from him yet. I had a very quick response from him.
You talk of harsh interrogation and questioning. I don't think I have been especially harsh. Precise yes. Again, you fail to grasp why it is so important to establish whether or not your dog was likely to have had DM. It is because you are making extravagant claims as to what can be accomplished. It is a cruel disease and I will say again, it is even more cruel to lead people to believe they can have their dog 'back' with DM, in they way you did with Golo. If you didn't make these claims frankly no one would really be overly concerned what your dog had, and would just be content to sympathise with you over the loss of your dog. As it is, their is a different purpose to your post. You haven't helped people's attitudes by implying that everyone else 'failed' to do everything or even anything for their dogs if they didn't achieve results 'as good' as you.
The only way FCE can be ruled out is by having an MRI. As another poster mentioned you had two teams of vets on this yet neither suggested an MRI to rule out FCE? Or did you just decide not to go that route?
Amputation - that's something that hasn't been mentioned before. Maybe you should mention that to Dr Clemmons, even though it wasn't mentioned here previously.
While focussing on the identity of the disease, what I probably haven't said enough about is that I do think you did a fabulous job with Golo. You had the dedication, courage and commitment to get him through it and get back a marvellous quality of life for him, and all credit to you for that. I am sure it could help people with dogs that suffer with the disease that he had, when we can more clearly identify what that was.
by Abby Normal on 20 March 2012 - 20:03
No response yet?
by AndyG on 20 March 2012 - 21:03
No response yet?
Not yet, I sent him the full description on Monday.
Not yet, I sent him the full description on Monday.
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