Really confuse with Show line vs Work line - Page 6

"I believe that the GSD temperament should always have a substantial defense drive as well as suspicion, because it is a herding dog and by its nature it is vigilant and while defense drive is not always on the surface, it is always available to be tapped into."   



Whole post was great, but this is really important IMO and what seems to be bred out of many of the current showlines.  At least the ones that I know of, and Mrks apparently. 

 I do agree that the GSD should have a good defense drive, it is not a labrador!  But, while there are some GSDs like this (lacking either defense or prey drive)  these are not the ones that will do well ultimately.  The best  show line dogs do have sufficient defense drive, but it is up to the breeder to be discriminating in this respect, when it comes to choosing breeding partners or which puppies in a litter to keep.

oso, what do you base this assessment on (best s/l dogs have defense drive). And I'm a s/l person and not trying to contradict you. Just that I have been to Germany, made the tour of kennels, seen the dogs and I was not able to come to this conclusion as to the best s/l dogs all have good character.

Can you provide a list (by PM) of the dogs that have both top conformation and good defense. Please include only the dogs that you have personal knowledge of and have "placed your hands on", so to speak. I have what I consider a very nice bitch that I have so far not been willing to breed because I have not been able to identify a dog such as you describe.

Again, not trying to be a smart ass. Just that after many years of contributing to the decline of the GSD (Am. s/l), I would like to identify dogs that can contribute to both structure and character.

Best,
Rik

 Actually what I meant when I said the best SL dogs, I did not mean necessarily the VAs,  the top dogs, I meant the best all rounders.  I have to say I have never seen any of the top German dogs in person and I know there are some issues with some of them, they are not all of them that great in temperament and I have heard that half of the present sieger's offspring have failed the bitework, so no, I am not looking through rose-coloured glasses.  I can tell you several SL dogs from here, Ecuador, that have excellent temperaments, but this will not mean much to you.....I do remember that a few years ago the bite work in the German sieger was a lot more impressive than recently (Ghandi Arlett, Hill Farbenspiel, Ando Altenbergerland spring to mind just off the top of my head), but I have not yet seen videos of all the current VAs and top V dogs, if I had the opportunity to breed a female with a top German male I would want to look in more detail at his temperament and that of  his progeny before making a decision, same if I one day consider buying a German puppy, I know from personal experience you can get good temperaments in SL dogs but you have to do your homework, and I think I already mentioned in an earlier post that this is for sure an issue that needs improving....

Is a dog's 'character/temperament' detailed in the Korbuch?

 Not usually in detail, only that they bite with courage and release on order, if a dog shows exceptional temperament it may or may not be mentioned

i alsways wondered the difference...................thanks for the info

Rik:

If I were you, I would look at the dogs that have done well in Universal Sieger type competition.  This however is not a surefire remedy, since you still have to do your research on pedigrees, temperament and such to ensure that the product of the breeding is better than the sum of its parents.  I'm really impressed with Javir vom Talka Marda, but I'm asuming that you are looking for more SL emphasis.  Thus, my first option for a recent Universal Sieger for stud would have to be Danny on Lesimo, a well constructed son of the working dog Xato von der bosen Nachbarschaft and of Mutz bloodline.  Other options might include Falko vom Wolfsblick, Benny v. Haus Pe-Ja, or a descendant of Lasso von Kampchen, a descendant of Bastin vom Kokeltal.  or a suitably bred descendant of Trimph's Gucci.

IMPO, another option might be Lasso vom Petersbrunnen whose sire is Danny Vom Lesimo and 2001 Universal Sieger Honda vom Petersbrunnen.  In this case, you may be hoping that the pups resemble not so much the parents, but the grandparents. 

Most of these options are not likely to do well on a top conformation show (not only due to color) and may rely on the dam to provide much of the aesthetics, but will offer a formidable mix of looks and working ability that harkens back to the 1960's and 1970's,

Going on the males alone, I'd like Danny vom Lesimo and Benny vom Haus Pe-Ja as being the safest bets or least risky.  Were Triumph's'Gucci alive, he would be the shoo-in candidate, but his offspring do somewhat increase the uncertainty and should be looked at individually to ensure that they are an improvement over their sire.

Anyways, just offering a hypothetical set of options.

OK, let's take Triumph's Guicci, he had superb temperament and very high V conformation. Now some of the sheep will tell you that the VA dogs aren't the dogs to look for in terms of working quality.....so I would assume that Guicci would be a perfect candidate for these VA females and high V females to be bred to so that temperament could improve and we keep our color and genetics. I am curious as to the quality of females(I mean VA or high V at National show), was he bred to????
I would assume many many of these types, if the powers that be were really interested in "improving" performance as I am led to believe. Just curious.

As usual, good observation Gustav.  I've noticed that he was bred to a number of high quality females including Quanda vom Frankengold and Krafta von der Urbecke.  Here's the roster of breedings: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny/119534.html