Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 6

Bob, I agree w/your last statement- if the standard were observed, and not totally disregarded in favor of breeding for egos and points, it would not need to be raised.

But I think Scout meant a general standard of what's acceptable, not necessarily "THE" standard.

Any way you look at it, there are some sorry ass dogs (due to training, genetics, idiot handlers, or a combo of all three) in both Sch. and police work.

When you start making excuses, it's a slippery slope.

If your going to emphasize "proper training" which I agree with a Schutzhund dog with proper training should have as good of a chance of passing police work as any other if the premise of proper training is the issue.
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This is simply incorrect. SCHH is not an accurate judge of a dog substanance or working ability. SCHH is basically a show ring. anyone can put enough food on the ground to get a dog to keep his nose on the ground for a few hundred yard. Anyone can train any dog to bite a sleeve. run around some blinds real fast to bite the guy at the end wow.

Why dont you come up with a real test of courage and put the dog on a back ally with weird lights, noises, shadows, multiple perps, comeing in shooting guns and see how many schh dogs have the heart, fights, and nerves to hold up? Or have one track a perp through that setting and work through those conditions.

Or you so called schh tracking. Show me how many are gonna find me 2 miles over multi surface tracks the rural, urban , areas?



There is a breeding difference. you dont need so called prey montsters for police or real work. Now out of people who breed for police there are some sport dogs who come out, and dogs that should be in the police who end up in sport. yes. But if you look at percentages across the board and far fewer schh dogs could make the transition to police work than the much higher percentage of police dogs who could be trained into schh.

you have how many screwed up show dogs who get schh3?


Prime example there is a k9 unit in my state in which purchased a high dollar red sable male shepherd. Schh3 VH1 titled from holland which was housed at a kennel in indiana. the handler came to me for help as the dog would not bite inmany cases. Perp on dumpster with echoing syrons and crumpling noises from dumpster, building search the guy stood still in the corner and did not move dog came out like building was clear, dog would not bite unless the perp moved to kick him into drive. 

this happens so many times because police have been sued for wrongful bitings so they wanted more obedience and started buying schh dog and it has screwed up our k9 units because of lack of knowledge, training, and genetically sound dogs. Schh dogs as a large percentage are not a dog to take into battle!!!!! 
 

Give:
 
Like many you use the word Schutzhund to describe dogs that are produced for the "sport" there is a difference!  Your disdain is showing Please use the proper terminology that is correct.

Obviously you can,t take a dog that has never been trained for police work and expect him to aprehend properly with out training as was stated in my post.

A properly breed dog From Schutzhund lines should have no problem handeling the training. 

The quality of the training also needs to be top notch.

Give
I unvite you to my home to open the door of the pen of my 2.5 year old soft dog being trained in ScHh
He will not care if you have a sleeve on your arm or padding on your legs he will take you down before you can raise a twitch
He will have your bare flesh for fun and i will not have to say a word to him
So come on over with health insurance to cover your hospital fees that is if you have the Balls to do it
The Invite is sincere and the result will be as i say, But after all is said, he is only a soft Dog fit for sports and nothing else according to you then you can return home and give the folks a good laugh as to what you encountered, A soft ScHh dog or one that takes no prisoners on his own patch
Steve1

If this is the case why do many reputable breeders who breed specifically for the placement of dogs in the police force, list and differentiate between dogs that cant cut it in the police but would be good for SCHH?

Bob, I agree with most of your two cents and Steve I think I am understanding you better or maybe misunderstood you and if so I apologize.
I personally think extremes are hurtful to the breed in both show and work. When i think of a good police dog I don't think of extremes but rather a well rounded strong nerved dog with good drive and great utitly. The training then molds them into the service dog. Many top sport dogs will not cut police work though they are extreme in prey drive allowing for exceptional grips, long bite, and flashy obedience. I have seen these dogs washed out because when unknown elements were entered,(fire,water,darkness,etc), these dogs shut down or were ineffective. (Not all but too many). I also agree that a good honest sound (internally) Sch dog should have no problem with be converted to policedog. I agree with Steve and Bob, and Jim on this. 
I do feel that the whole Sch test in present form has been watered down to no longer make it routine to convert a Sch dog to policedog. Let me explain why and connect it to my point. I won't use protection because people get caught up in extremes and miss the point(IMO).
Obedience....The removal of the 6 foot straight wall has an immense impact on the mental and physical traits of today's German Shepherd. Why??? Because physically many of these loose liagmented, over sized, clumsy, too long, no agility type dogs would not have been able to go over it. Mentally, few if any dogs can jump over the wall so it requires the dog to hit it with its paws at the top and pull itself through. This requires confidence, not concern for injury, and a form of mental toughness. Again many of the dogs that pass the test today don't possess these traits. I use intestinal fortitude as being necessary to do this(one of the first thing that eliminates sch dogs from working K9 dogs). Now I am aware of the cry about injury to the dog for the wall...blah blah blah, I don't believe its about that at all. I don't think it is a coincidence that as money and type of dog that wouldn't be successful with this crossed roads the powers that be elected to change the routine INSTEAD of the type of dog emerging. At our police training site we still have the six foot straight wall but have a platform on otherside so dog doesn't have to take long junp downwards on front legs eliminating that concern. BUT, the dog still has to have the structure/heart/ mindset to tackle this jump successfully. The removal of this aspect of Sch had an enormous impact on dogs being passed that didn't have to show intestinal fortitude but rather run real fast up a hill and down the other side...BLAh Blah Blah. It also allowed dogs with less structural utility features be successful.
There are other things that were removed in protection to again allow weak nerved dogs to pass but that is another subject. This is just my opinion based on what I see today and what I saw in the past. Maybe I'm dreaming(smile). 

Ego of the breeder? Improper use of termonaoligy? Too many breeders breeding for the sport and not the dog and advertising useing the word Schutzhund?

Schutzhund is a foundation of training that should produce a well rounded dog suitable for any working venue. Unfortunatly breding for 1 specific purpose other then the original goal has produced problems in the lines the question stated can the dogs bred for sport also work the answer to that is if properly bred yes they can.

Gustav:

Excellent point,

Im sorry there is a huge percentage of sch dogs that cant cut it.

how many schh dogs have our PSA lovers seens get run off the field?
How many of us have watched them wash out of the police units cause they just plain dont have it?

There are few than can cut the mustard.


you can say what you want steve i have a field lab at the house you open her crate door you are going to get bit.
that means absolutely nothing. shoot my gf's bichon frise will bite you you open her crate.

There are some schh dogs that could do the work yes but they are few and far between!!!!!!!!! When schh becomes a viable test for dogs in the police then im sure the police will use it for there test. but it simply doesnt even come close to the rigerous tests a good k9 unit will put there dog through.  

Huge percentage of "sport dogs" that can,t cut it. That probably is true.