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by Bob McKown on 19 December 2009 - 02:12
Schutzhund does not want hard dogs?? Prager some times you can be very funny.
by Prager on 19 December 2009 - 03:12
It depends on your definition of "hard dog". SchH training is based mostly, or I would venture to say 100%, on prey. Dog which is only or mostly in prey during protection is not using courage, but only a drive and thus is unsuitable for serious protection and it will run under serious pressure. That is whatn this thread is all about . SchH people saying that all SchH dogs can be made to run . Hard dog has prey and defense in equal proportions and in relatively high absolute value. Hard dog will not give up easily in any situation. Prey or defense. Not just in SchH prey exercise. Hard dog has high fight drive in any (defensive or prey)situation. However such dogs are often branded by SchH trainers as not being clear in the head and are rejected because trainer does not have clue what to do. That is why SchH high level sport is ruining GSD for police work and for example German police stated that as long as this will go on they will buy Mali or GSD in other countries.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Bob McKown on 19 December 2009 - 03:12
Prager:
Humor is a wonderful thing.
Humor is a wonderful thing.
by snajper69 on 19 December 2009 - 05:12
4pack we are talking about my dog with Jim and a ways to improve her ;). If you want in I don't have a problem of sending you a video and bouncing some ideas off me with regards to my next direction in her training.
Prager I do agree with a lot that you said I am glad you join in.
Bob I had seen and heared of similar experience where tough dogs were not accepted and thrown out of the SCH clubs, I seen a dog being provoked and fucked with by a helper just because the trainer/breeder wasn't part of social group accepted by the club. Shit dose happen and politics takes over at times. I am hopping that is not with all clubs so your experience may very.
Prager I do agree with a lot that you said I am glad you join in.
Bob I had seen and heared of similar experience where tough dogs were not accepted and thrown out of the SCH clubs, I seen a dog being provoked and fucked with by a helper just because the trainer/breeder wasn't part of social group accepted by the club. Shit dose happen and politics takes over at times. I am hopping that is not with all clubs so your experience may very.
by 4pack on 19 December 2009 - 08:12
Snajper69, of course I'd love to see video of your girl. I'd like to hear what Jim has to say about her, not sure I would have anything to add but I'm curious to see your video and how Jim assesses your dog. I like to see what others see, that I may have missed or interpreted differently.
by Slamdunc on 19 December 2009 - 08:12
Hey Snajper and 4pack,
I just got home form work and it's 3:30 AM. I will send you both the PM tomorrow when my I'm not so tired. 4pack, I will copy the PM to you and would love to hear your thoughts as well. Now, it's time to unwind from the stupid and sometimes really crazy people I have to deal with at times in real life. Luckily, I rarely deal with any as crazy as some on the PDB.
Jim
I just got home form work and it's 3:30 AM. I will send you both the PM tomorrow when my I'm not so tired. 4pack, I will copy the PM to you and would love to hear your thoughts as well. Now, it's time to unwind from the stupid and sometimes really crazy people I have to deal with at times in real life. Luckily, I rarely deal with any as crazy as some on the PDB.
Jim
by Bob McKown on 19 December 2009 - 12:12
Snai:
Oh I agree that there are people not just training clubs that don,t want to work with strong alpha type dogs I agree with that whole heartedly and it,s those genetics that should be sought out and used to the advantage,
Every dog like every human has it,s achillies heal,there is a place or frame of mind that can turn a animal just as a human. No matter what the origin country there are hard dogs thru out there is not one country that has the corner on this type of dog.
A dog that is strong should be a very even tempered dog not with any one drive that over whelms the other, is consistant and has equal drives through out this and good training create a strong dog. Not every Schutzhund practioner lives for that "last point" that in it,s self shows lack of understanding.
Oh I agree that there are people not just training clubs that don,t want to work with strong alpha type dogs I agree with that whole heartedly and it,s those genetics that should be sought out and used to the advantage,
Every dog like every human has it,s achillies heal,there is a place or frame of mind that can turn a animal just as a human. No matter what the origin country there are hard dogs thru out there is not one country that has the corner on this type of dog.
A dog that is strong should be a very even tempered dog not with any one drive that over whelms the other, is consistant and has equal drives through out this and good training create a strong dog. Not every Schutzhund practioner lives for that "last point" that in it,s self shows lack of understanding.
by Gustav on 19 December 2009 - 14:12
Snajper,
First, you qualified the question with Sch field and Sch people. Within that context I think that there are many dogs that can be run off the field by the intimidating or very skilled helper. But, some dogs even in the sch element will not be run off the field because of the fight drive within the dog. Now because Sch is a sport and the dog has been exposed to rules from day one, then the resulting action may not be perfect long bite. What I mean is when you run a dog off the field the dog is usually pushed into avoidance or confusion. The triggers for this with some dogs, kicks them into a mindset of trying to dominate or even hurt you. (As prager explained with police type dogs). Some dogs when confronted with the triggers will naturally not resort to avoidance but rather high intensity fight to conquer. Now these dogs wont be run off the field but they may deviate their approach in trying to "hurt" the decoy and they won't quit as long as the fight ensues and they have breath. Now remember I am answering this in the context of on the Sch field as your initial question stated. Most dogs on the Sch field today aren't like that because of training and genetics. But there are some, and those dogs won't be run off the field. Some dogs are like Evander Hollyfield, willing to take on any confrontation and the harder the fight gets the harder they fight. Now, in military and police training it is different story, but that is another subject....JMO.
First, you qualified the question with Sch field and Sch people. Within that context I think that there are many dogs that can be run off the field by the intimidating or very skilled helper. But, some dogs even in the sch element will not be run off the field because of the fight drive within the dog. Now because Sch is a sport and the dog has been exposed to rules from day one, then the resulting action may not be perfect long bite. What I mean is when you run a dog off the field the dog is usually pushed into avoidance or confusion. The triggers for this with some dogs, kicks them into a mindset of trying to dominate or even hurt you. (As prager explained with police type dogs). Some dogs when confronted with the triggers will naturally not resort to avoidance but rather high intensity fight to conquer. Now these dogs wont be run off the field but they may deviate their approach in trying to "hurt" the decoy and they won't quit as long as the fight ensues and they have breath. Now remember I am answering this in the context of on the Sch field as your initial question stated. Most dogs on the Sch field today aren't like that because of training and genetics. But there are some, and those dogs won't be run off the field. Some dogs are like Evander Hollyfield, willing to take on any confrontation and the harder the fight gets the harder they fight. Now, in military and police training it is different story, but that is another subject....JMO.
by 1doggie2 on 19 December 2009 - 17:12
Adi Ibrahimbegovic, I had to pull my rotts Canine out of my forearm, the bone in my arm acted as a pair of plyers and pulled his tooth, it went down into the bone, I was flushing tiny pieces out for a few days. this bite was no joke. I was breaking up a fight between 2 males. Thru my life, yes, I have had some minor "knicks" and a few majors, this was the worst. There was so much going on and in such a tight space, I did not feel the bite, but I did feel the back, when I was taken down, I crushed a disk in my back and now have a crack, my arm was the least of my issues.
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 19 December 2009 - 20:12
I am sorry to hear that man. I guess in the heat of the moment, one doesn't fell that much sometimes.
On the other hand, maybe I am just a wuss, cause I feel it every single time...
Stay safe and healthy.
On the other hand, maybe I am just a wuss, cause I feel it every single time...
Stay safe and healthy.
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