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by VonIsengard on 27 March 2009 - 04:03
"THREE C'S RIVER VONBARRON KIRSCHENTAL"
"THREE C'S SCARLETT VONBARRON WIENERAU"
Nothing says expertise like ripping off the names of kennels renowned and respected worldwide. Ugh. I'm not catty often, but this is a joke.
edit: rare gold sables, huh? Good thing them there rare colors are worth such big bucks, pays for that purty double wide.
by eichenluft on 27 March 2009 - 06:03
I have seen pictures of the puppies and they are not sables - they appear to be a dilute "something" maybe light gold liver - too young to see yet as all puppies have pink pads and noses as newborns. But they are yellow-lab color "all over" no markings. IMO the two gold puppies are not purebred - but if they are purebred then they appear to be solid dilute - liver? Or maybe black with one masking gene - off-white? Interesting. Not sable, though. They look like yellow lab puppies.
molly
molly
by lawer on 27 March 2009 - 08:03
definately a dilute of some sort. Most likely whites in background somewhere, ive seen yellow puppies off of whites the breeder called them the exotic name of champane. wanted to mate on of them to one of my sables was chased for her trouble. lol
by lawer on 27 March 2009 - 08:03
definately a dilute of some sort. Most likely whites in background somewhere, ive seen yellow puppies off of whites the breeder called them the exotic name of champane. wanted to mate on of them to one of my sables was chased for her trouble. lol
by pod on 27 March 2009 - 08:03
I asked the owner if either of the parents could be patterned sables. She said she would get their coat color's DNA'd to find out.
No, I have not seen either of the parents in person.
I am wondering if maybe the puppies are not even sable. I will ask her if I can post the puppy pics here. I have seen the pics of the puppies and they actually look like a golden retreiver color (NOO, no Golden got to the female). The pads of the puppy are pink. Maybe a liver?
Thank you for the informative remarks as we did not think that two black/red's could produce sables either.
Ok, firstly Baxley does have a point about mutation being possible. Though very rare they do occur and the panda colour is a good example. It is quite possible that an at allele mutated back to wild type aw in one of the parents. But it's not possble for sable to lie "dormant" in a black & tan dog.
But if this is like Golden Retriever colour, then it's unlikely to be sable. Sales are born very dark and gradually lighten as the hair grows, the exception being a liver sable, as someone has already mentioned I think, but the possibility of a mutation coupled with expression of a rare recessive is exceedingly unlkely.
Most likely explanation is that this is a particularly dark expression of recessive ee which normally produces white in the GSD but with particular genes for darker phaeomelanin shade, a golden shade has resulted. Various shades of red/golden attributable to recessive ee are common across a range of breeds eg golden Cocker, Labrador, Irish Setter.
Apart from DNA testing, there is another way to give an indication if this is recessive ee and that is by the colour of the whiskers. If they are light coloured, same as the coat, or white, then this is probably (white markings or blips in melanocyte migration could also account for this) recessive ee. If the whiskers are black, or liver coloured in the unlikely case of a liver, then this could be a sable or some other explanation.
No, I have not seen either of the parents in person.
I am wondering if maybe the puppies are not even sable. I will ask her if I can post the puppy pics here. I have seen the pics of the puppies and they actually look like a golden retreiver color (NOO, no Golden got to the female). The pads of the puppy are pink. Maybe a liver?
Thank you for the informative remarks as we did not think that two black/red's could produce sables either.
Ok, firstly Baxley does have a point about mutation being possible. Though very rare they do occur and the panda colour is a good example. It is quite possible that an at allele mutated back to wild type aw in one of the parents. But it's not possble for sable to lie "dormant" in a black & tan dog.
But if this is like Golden Retriever colour, then it's unlikely to be sable. Sales are born very dark and gradually lighten as the hair grows, the exception being a liver sable, as someone has already mentioned I think, but the possibility of a mutation coupled with expression of a rare recessive is exceedingly unlkely.
Most likely explanation is that this is a particularly dark expression of recessive ee which normally produces white in the GSD but with particular genes for darker phaeomelanin shade, a golden shade has resulted. Various shades of red/golden attributable to recessive ee are common across a range of breeds eg golden Cocker, Labrador, Irish Setter.
Apart from DNA testing, there is another way to give an indication if this is recessive ee and that is by the colour of the whiskers. If they are light coloured, same as the coat, or white, then this is probably (white markings or blips in melanocyte migration could also account for this) recessive ee. If the whiskers are black, or liver coloured in the unlikely case of a liver, then this could be a sable or some other explanation.
by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 12:03
Thanks, Pod. We all (I think) know that mutation is "possible." We all also know that "third parties" are also possible, as is plain old wrong-headedness...as demonstrated from Baxley's own website and apparent practices. :-)
by Nancy on 27 March 2009 - 12:03
Yes, I think the obvious is usually the most likely answer, then if not you start researching the obscure.
Baxley [admittedly not related to the original post but I have not see the puppy/parent pictures either and sometimes a sable can be hard to pick out from some pictures and even in real life] does not seem to understand how the white masking gene works else every one of those "Genetic aberrations" Baxley has bred could be explained.
As far as the bashing. When someone's response to intellegent answers is "you are all idiots" and "I have been breeding for 30 years" AND chooses to place ads on this site. Well, how can you NOT say something? If I were uneducated and looking for a puppy, I may look at the ad, find the forum post, and see silence as an endorsement of these whacky ideas. There is a lot of misinformation on that site.
Oh there is another web page / same breeder. Very heavy into advertising on the web elswere as well, and I imagine the newspaper and craigslist.
http://threeckennels.com/default.aspx
Baxley [admittedly not related to the original post but I have not see the puppy/parent pictures either and sometimes a sable can be hard to pick out from some pictures and even in real life] does not seem to understand how the white masking gene works else every one of those "Genetic aberrations" Baxley has bred could be explained.
As far as the bashing. When someone's response to intellegent answers is "you are all idiots" and "I have been breeding for 30 years" AND chooses to place ads on this site. Well, how can you NOT say something? If I were uneducated and looking for a puppy, I may look at the ad, find the forum post, and see silence as an endorsement of these whacky ideas. There is a lot of misinformation on that site.
Oh there is another web page / same breeder. Very heavy into advertising on the web elswere as well, and I imagine the newspaper and craigslist.
http://threeckennels.com/default.aspx
by Mystere on 27 March 2009 - 16:03
Nancy,
You are exactly right. Responses to this type of breeding, breeding practices and the idiocy (as well as the clear misleading nature of Baxely's statements on her site) must be pointed out. Newbies looking for a dog may well go to her site and be misled. A Google search, however, will also bring up the references to her kennel and, perhaps, enlighten potential buyers. At the very least, the public needs to understand that having Uran seven generations back does no more for that puppy than the fact I may have had a German in my ancestry seven generations back: it could make utterly no difference and sure as hell by now would be buried deep! 
by Sherman-RanchGSD on 27 March 2009 - 16:03
Its not possible that two blk/reds produce a sable. Some things that are possible:
1. One of the parents is actually sable but when registerd someone said they were blk/red ..perhaps they are actually sables with well defined markings (saddles etc.) who knows and the registration is not accurate.
2. The puppy is not sable but actually dilute or has fading markings like the saddle ticking, etc.
DNA will confirm the parents but dont think it will confirm the color (G).
Some sables can produce and do even when bred to another sable blk/tans (you can say blk/red if it makes you feel better ) bi colors, black.. depending on the dogs lineage and what they throw.
Best wishes,
Debi
www.webstarts.com/sherman-ranch
www.webstarts.com/ironfistcreations
1. One of the parents is actually sable but when registerd someone said they were blk/red ..perhaps they are actually sables with well defined markings (saddles etc.) who knows and the registration is not accurate.
2. The puppy is not sable but actually dilute or has fading markings like the saddle ticking, etc.
DNA will confirm the parents but dont think it will confirm the color (G).
Some sables can produce and do even when bred to another sable blk/tans (you can say blk/red if it makes you feel better ) bi colors, black.. depending on the dogs lineage and what they throw.
Best wishes,
Debi
www.webstarts.com/sherman-ranch
www.webstarts.com/ironfistcreations
by VonIsengard on 27 March 2009 - 16:03
Ok, so I really, really hate the "lets pick on this breeder/bloodline/dog/ad" that permeates these boards. I find it childish, arrogant, and a waste of time. I know I do a good job and don't feel the need to be the "breeder police". In this case, I just could not ignore it. People like this are the EPITOME of what is destroying the German Shepherd Dog in this country. I know there are thousand of breeders out there just like this, but...ugh. Hopefully some newbie looking for a pup DOES read threads like this and learn what warning signs are. A few quotes from her websites:
Puppies and children go hand and hand. If you have children you need one of our german shepherd puppies to be their guardian angel.
If you are looking for a Family Friend or Schutzhund dog, we have the dog for you.
The color of this litter is silver-sables and gold sables. This a rare color that you just don't see
Three C Kennel German Shepherd puppies are normally priced between $800. to 1200. each depending on quality of each puppy. All puppies will have Full AKC Registration and can be used for Breeding, Odedience, Showing in Confirmation, police work, SAR, Therapy or as a Family companion.
Buyer
Beware if your GSD is not AKC then you really don't know what you are buying!!
He produces gorgeous puppies, which can be trained in just about anything. He has different levels of schutzhund all threw his pedigree.
Always use more expensive super premium dry dog food, such as Purina, Purina -one, Pro-plan, Pedigree, Eukanuba, Iams for better health conditions.
In the South, we raise our German Shepherds big! The males average 110-130 lbs, and females 75-100 lbs!
This guarantee is null and void if Penn-Hipp procedure has been used at anytime during the life of the puppy. Furthermore, guarantee is null and void if hip x-rays are taken before 18 months old
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Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
Puppies and children go hand and hand. If you have children you need one of our german shepherd puppies to be their guardian angel.
If you are looking for a Family Friend or Schutzhund dog, we have the dog for you.
The color of this litter is silver-sables and gold sables. This a rare color that you just don't see
Three C Kennel German Shepherd puppies are normally priced between $800. to 1200. each depending on quality of each puppy. All puppies will have Full AKC Registration and can be used for Breeding, Odedience, Showing in Confirmation, police work, SAR, Therapy or as a Family companion.
Buyer
Beware if your GSD is not AKC then you really don't know what you are buying!!
He produces gorgeous puppies, which can be trained in just about anything. He has different levels of schutzhund all threw his pedigree.
Always use more expensive super premium dry dog food, such as Purina, Purina -one, Pro-plan, Pedigree, Eukanuba, Iams for better health conditions.
In the South, we raise our German Shepherds big! The males average 110-130 lbs, and females 75-100 lbs!
This guarantee is null and void if Penn-Hipp procedure has been used at anytime during the life of the puppy. Furthermore, guarantee is null and void if hip x-rays are taken before 18 months old
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top