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by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Jenni,
IMO, GARD and I are talking about the same dog...in different circumstances.
The same bitch I referenced truly was one very impressive bitch on the protection field. She is the same bitch who protected me, quite forcefully, in a real life situation. She is the same bitch who did not allow anyone (other than me) to touch "her" vehicle while she was in it. She is the same bitch who sent my ass to the hospital ( and 17 stitches), after a very, very stupid and unfair (as well as idiotic) "correction" with an e-collar, used a la the macho-idiots. She is the same bitch who was excellent and clear-headed with children, despite having very limited exposure to them. It is ALL ABOUT SOLID, STABLE TEMPERAMENT.
I would not have expected her to act with a helper, or a violent miscreant on the street, the same way she acted with a guest in my home, a child, or with guests at other peoples' homes.
IMO, GARD and I are talking about the same dog...in different circumstances.
The same bitch I referenced truly was one very impressive bitch on the protection field. She is the same bitch who protected me, quite forcefully, in a real life situation. She is the same bitch who did not allow anyone (other than me) to touch "her" vehicle while she was in it. She is the same bitch who sent my ass to the hospital ( and 17 stitches), after a very, very stupid and unfair (as well as idiotic) "correction" with an e-collar, used a la the macho-idiots. She is the same bitch who was excellent and clear-headed with children, despite having very limited exposure to them. It is ALL ABOUT SOLID, STABLE TEMPERAMENT. I would not have expected her to act with a helper, or a violent miscreant on the street, the same way she acted with a guest in my home, a child, or with guests at other peoples' homes.
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Mystere, I've looked at the relevant thread, and GARD is talking about a dog that's so high drive, you wouldn't want to keep it in the house.
Two totally different types of dogs.
And I agree with those who say a GSD should not be that crazy.
Two totally different types of dogs.
And I agree with those who say a GSD should not be that crazy.
by ShelleyR on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Well.... I have done bitework once or twice (at least.) 
There is no place or extra points for unbalanced temperment on the Schutzhund field either. I have never met an SV judge who couldn't accurately assess temperament in less than 10 seconds. Make that 5 seconds for Kormeisters. That's why they are judges and Kormeisters and the rest of us... aren't? That doesn' mean I have never seen one ignore marginal temperament, go ahead and award a Korung to a dog I wouldn't take on a bet, but those incidences are very rare in my memory.
On that note I will add that while Breed warnings on a Koer report are always self-explanatory, there's frequently a lot more between the lines in the comments and breeding recommendations spaces than meets the casual eye, perhaps not fully appreciated by a newcomer to the sport and the breed... or even a lot of self-proclaimed experts. I'm pretty sure ALL Kormeisters possess an extremely high level of proficiency when it comes to understatement, perhaps a prerequisite for the position? LOL
Example- I would translate a Breed Recommendation of "Suitable for breeding to a partner with pronounced hardness and fighting drive" as Your dog barely squeaked by and if you don't do something about improving temperament when you pick a breeding partner for it I shudder to think what you're going to get in the next generation.
Roughly translated of course. LOLOLOL
SS
There is no place or extra points for unbalanced temperment on the Schutzhund field either. I have never met an SV judge who couldn't accurately assess temperament in less than 10 seconds. Make that 5 seconds for Kormeisters. That's why they are judges and Kormeisters and the rest of us... aren't? That doesn' mean I have never seen one ignore marginal temperament, go ahead and award a Korung to a dog I wouldn't take on a bet, but those incidences are very rare in my memory.
On that note I will add that while Breed warnings on a Koer report are always self-explanatory, there's frequently a lot more between the lines in the comments and breeding recommendations spaces than meets the casual eye, perhaps not fully appreciated by a newcomer to the sport and the breed... or even a lot of self-proclaimed experts. I'm pretty sure ALL Kormeisters possess an extremely high level of proficiency when it comes to understatement, perhaps a prerequisite for the position? LOL
Example- I would translate a Breed Recommendation of "Suitable for breeding to a partner with pronounced hardness and fighting drive" as Your dog barely squeaked by and if you don't do something about improving temperament when you pick a breeding partner for it I shudder to think what you're going to get in the next generation.
Roughly translated of course. LOLOLOL
SS
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Sunsilver,
Sorry, gotta disagree!! I HAVE one of those dogs--totally over the top drives. Very high fight drive and LOTS of aggression. He was very aggressive in the bitework and could be quite scary on the field, and there were helpers who were afraid of him. If you saw videos of him, you'd say the same thing. HOWEVER, he lived in the house, quite calmly. He was and is also very friendly--nothing aloof about him in public. He wants to buddy up to everybody. Why? He has a balanced, stable temperament! He does not act in the house the way he would on the training field. No reason to. He is and always was such a slouching couch-potato at home that the guys (including judges) who tried to talk me into giving, or selling him to them would not have wanted him, if they had ever seen him at home.
My current bitch( one year old) is just this side of being over the top in drive ( some consider her to actually be "over the top." ) She lives in the house, again, quite calmly. She is already impressive as hell on the field because she is so aggressive in the bitework. She is a very friendly and affectionate puppy away from the protection field. It remains to be seen whether she turns out to be as balanced and stable as the other two--she has a totally different pedigree that would indicate more plain old nasty aggression than either of them. But, so far, so good. Obviously, with her pedigree, I was more actively concerned with and committed to socialization than I was with the others. My dogs are always, however, well socialized. She has Crok behind her, and it shows.
Sorry, gotta disagree!! I HAVE one of those dogs--totally over the top drives. Very high fight drive and LOTS of aggression. He was very aggressive in the bitework and could be quite scary on the field, and there were helpers who were afraid of him. If you saw videos of him, you'd say the same thing. HOWEVER, he lived in the house, quite calmly. He was and is also very friendly--nothing aloof about him in public. He wants to buddy up to everybody. Why? He has a balanced, stable temperament! He does not act in the house the way he would on the training field. No reason to. He is and always was such a slouching couch-potato at home that the guys (including judges) who tried to talk me into giving, or selling him to them would not have wanted him, if they had ever seen him at home.
My current bitch( one year old) is just this side of being over the top in drive ( some consider her to actually be "over the top." ) She lives in the house, again, quite calmly. She is already impressive as hell on the field because she is so aggressive in the bitework. She is a very friendly and affectionate puppy away from the protection field. It remains to be seen whether she turns out to be as balanced and stable as the other two--she has a totally different pedigree that would indicate more plain old nasty aggression than either of them. But, so far, so good. Obviously, with her pedigree, I was more actively concerned with and committed to socialization than I was with the others. My dogs are always, however, well socialized. She has Crok behind her, and it shows.
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Mystere, I think we are interpreting statements differently, you, me, and GARD. I hear you loud and clear, and agree. OTOH, GARD seems to think I'm saying dogs should be pets always, and there is not place for "hard" or "serious" dogs...which couldn't be farther from the truth. I was merely saying that breeding for imbalance in the name of points (and I think we can all agree, there are those who see no problem with this, though they may not be the norm) is dangerous and detrimental and I feel sorry for the dogs who are mistreated b/c that's the only way to "handle" them b/c they were bred to be so extreme. JMHO.
GARD did say that you wouldn't want his dog living in the house. Mine don't, or at least not all at once. I rotate them. Any of them can be in the house...but I'd be lying if I said it was a picnic, lol. They're a bit "much" to lounge around on Sunday and watch the game with. Not to say I don't do it anyway. :-)
GARD did say that you wouldn't want his dog living in the house. Mine don't, or at least not all at once. I rotate them. Any of them can be in the house...but I'd be lying if I said it was a picnic, lol. They're a bit "much" to lounge around on Sunday and watch the game with. Not to say I don't do it anyway. :-)
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Shelley has hit the nail on the head: TEMPERAMENT IS EVERYTHING in schutzhund. Yes, there are a few morons who "think" they want the equivalent of a domesticated hyena for the sport, but once they get eaten by a dog with a rotten temperament (AFTER finding out that it is no fun training a dog you have to be scared of), they often change their minds. Those that don't probably have other problems that have nothing to do with dogs, per se. Jenni has referenced those issues already.
Shelley,
Thanks for the giggle!! So true!!
Example- I would translate a Breed Recommendation of "Suitable for breeding to a partner with pronounced hardness and fighting drive" as Your dog barely squeaked by and if you don't do something about improving temperament when you pick a breeding partner for it I shudder to think what you're going to get in the next generation.
Roughly translated of course. LOLOLOL
Shelley,
Thanks for the giggle!! So true!!
Example- I would translate a Breed Recommendation of "Suitable for breeding to a partner with pronounced hardness and fighting drive" as Your dog barely squeaked by and if you don't do something about improving temperament when you pick a breeding partner for it I shudder to think what you're going to get in the next generation.
Roughly translated of course. LOLOLOL
by Sunsilver on 23 February 2009 - 18:02
Mystere afraid you're misunderstanding what I said. I totally agree that a high-drive dog on the field can make a great house dog, be kid friendly, etc, just like your dog. However, if you read GARD's posts, he's talking about dogs that are so OTT crazy that you wouldn't WANT them in your house! Here's the relevant bit:
"My dog I have now comes down from some of the best French lines. I guarantee you 100% you could not and would not want my dog living in your house. They are not genetically imbalanced they are bred for a specific purpose; sport, police, and military work. They are not "pets" Just because a dog does not ive in a house does not mean they are not loved or do not have a good relationship with their handlers."
"My dog I have now comes down from some of the best French lines. I guarantee you 100% you could not and would not want my dog living in your house. They are not genetically imbalanced they are bred for a specific purpose; sport, police, and military work. They are not "pets" Just because a dog does not ive in a house does not mean they are not loved or do not have a good relationship with their handlers."
by Jeff Oehlsen on 23 February 2009 - 19:02
Quote: I know opinions are going to differ on this, but IMO, any dog that bites its owner, and causes that much damage, does not have a good temperment, even if it WAS a 'mistake'. The dog can smell, can't it? Then, catching its owner's scent in the seconds before the bite should have been enough to either prevent the bite, or inhibit it to the point where it caused no or very little damage.
Catching the scent ??? Where is that Tinkerbell when I need her.
Quote: She is the same bitch who sent my ass to the hospital ( and 17 stitches),
Just think if she was traveling at 30 miles an hour.....how many stitches then ?????
Quote:
Sorry, gotta disagree!! I HAVE one of those dogs--totally over the top drives. Very high fight drive and LOTS of aggression. He was very aggressive in the bitework and could be quite scary on the field, and there were helpers who were afraid of him.
Who is to say that this dog is not exactly the same ??? For all we know, this dog might be great with children. There is nothing that you can tell about this dog from a video that shows that he has poor temperament, unless temperament is solely derived from bitework.
Let us go back a bit. When you look for a stud dog, you look for something that is over the top. He will produce for the most part a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Then you breed to the son, and he will produce a little less than he is, with exceptions.
There is a sliding scale going on here. You cannot just breed the middle all the time, or the dogs become sorta pointless.
Catching the scent ??? Where is that Tinkerbell when I need her.
Quote: She is the same bitch who sent my ass to the hospital ( and 17 stitches),
Just think if she was traveling at 30 miles an hour.....how many stitches then ?????
Quote:
Sorry, gotta disagree!! I HAVE one of those dogs--totally over the top drives. Very high fight drive and LOTS of aggression. He was very aggressive in the bitework and could be quite scary on the field, and there were helpers who were afraid of him.
Who is to say that this dog is not exactly the same ??? For all we know, this dog might be great with children. There is nothing that you can tell about this dog from a video that shows that he has poor temperament, unless temperament is solely derived from bitework.
Let us go back a bit. When you look for a stud dog, you look for something that is over the top. He will produce for the most part a little less than he is, with exceptions.
Then you breed to the son, and he will produce a little less than he is, with exceptions.
There is a sliding scale going on here. You cannot just breed the middle all the time, or the dogs become sorta pointless.
by Mystere on 23 February 2009 - 19:02
Sunsilver,
<sigh> Is GARD talking about his MALS in that sentence, or GSDs? VERY different temperaments and nerves between the two breeds. If my recollection is correct that that reference is to MALS, then you are comparing apples and oranges, IMO.
I haven't met any Mals that I'd want to live with. But, I know people who do. I also have Ring friends who will tell you the same thing about their mals--NOT for homes, not pets. Other of my Ring friends do have their mals in the house ---even some I would never want to live with personally.
I would not want a gsd with a temperament like a mal and no mal person I know would want a mal with a temperament like a gsd. What would be the point?
<sigh> Is GARD talking about his MALS in that sentence, or GSDs? VERY different temperaments and nerves between the two breeds. If my recollection is correct that that reference is to MALS, then you are comparing apples and oranges, IMO.
I haven't met any Mals that I'd want to live with.
But, I know people who do. I also have Ring friends who will tell you the same thing about their mals--NOT for homes, not pets. Other of my Ring friends do have their mals in the house ---even some I would never want to live with personally. I would not want a gsd with a temperament like a mal and no mal person I know would want a mal with a temperament like a gsd. What would be the point?
by Jenni78 on 23 February 2009 - 19:02
I think GARD was talking about Mals. Can't be sure. I couldn't honestly follow some of it, b/c while he was yelling at me, he was applying his statements toward things I said that he took completely out of context or just misunderstood in the first place.
Because I said the 3 e collar incident happened on a FR field, he brought up Ring dogs, which this wasn't really about. I do believe he was talking about Mals, b/c he also insinuated that I don't know any Mals, or the ones I had met were all French. I don't know where he got that from, but I think that was what he was saying.
So yes, apples to oranges. Although I don't think instability and living in the house are always related...or not. I have stable dogs who I prefer stay out of the house, and I agree; I have not met many Mals I would like to live with; I like them, I respect them, I enjoy hanging out with them on occasion...but they're not my breed of choice. I have a Pit who acts like a Mal...and while I love him to pieces, the 110% energy gets old on occasion. But that's not to say Mals are or should be unstable. They are simply different temperamentally. JMO.
Because I said the 3 e collar incident happened on a FR field, he brought up Ring dogs, which this wasn't really about. I do believe he was talking about Mals, b/c he also insinuated that I don't know any Mals, or the ones I had met were all French. I don't know where he got that from, but I think that was what he was saying.
So yes, apples to oranges. Although I don't think instability and living in the house are always related...or not. I have stable dogs who I prefer stay out of the house, and I agree; I have not met many Mals I would like to live with; I like them, I respect them, I enjoy hanging out with them on occasion...but they're not my breed of choice. I have a Pit who acts like a Mal...and while I love him to pieces, the 110% energy gets old on occasion. But that's not to say Mals are or should be unstable. They are simply different temperamentally. JMO.
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