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by Slamdunc on 13 February 2009 - 04:02
Now, in my opinion and experience when a dog raises it's hackles at a person it is usually a sign of insecurity or unsureness. Not a big deal with puppies or dogs going through a fear stage in development. When it comes to people a strong, dominant, confident dog may show aggression by growling, barking, snarling and body posture, but in most cases the hackles won't be raised. My PSD (Police K9) does not raise his hackles when showing aggression towards people. He has been through some strenous and stressfull training where he believed he was in a real fight. If muzzled he will growl out of frusrtration but engage and fight. Without a muzzle he will bite and fight harder, but no hackles. Even under serious pressure his hackles don't go up but his fight drive and aggression increases.
Recently, a fellow K9 handler got a new GSD that was returned from a State PD for handler aggression. This dog gave his handler and the trainer many stitches and the dog was returned to the vendor. My buddy needed a new dog and took this one knowing his history. This dog is actually very social when not working. However, this dog is a high drive dog with an underlying insecurity in my opinion. When it comes to bite work this dog requires no stimulation and will try to tear the decoy apart. This dog believes he is in a fight for his life and he is intent on winning. When this dog comes out for bitework his hackles are up and he is very serious. The difference is the insecurity the dog has. Does this mean this dog will make a poor Police K9, I don't think so quite the opposite. It's not the worst thing for a PPD or a Police K9 to have a little insecurity and think he's in a real fight. These dogs don't trust people and will bite for real and fight for real. The big caveat is that the dog must go forward and bring the fight, this temperament can be used for a K9. Now, a dog with insecurities that doesn't want to fight or thinks of running (flight) is useless as a Police K9.
For a sport dog, a dog that raises his hackles as I described above may not be a good point dog because the bites can be hard but are usually not as full. There are ways to work on this to calm and build the dogs confidence and develop a better grip. But in general, I don't like a dog that raises it's hackles at people it is usually unsure and a sign of weakeness. Except for the rare dog that will fight through it, those dogs are ok with me.
By the way, Bob and Abhay I also fought full contact and met Bill Wallace, Remy Pressas, Dan Inosanto and many others.
Jim
by Jeff Oehlsen on 13 February 2009 - 05:02
by olskoolgsds on 13 February 2009 - 05:02
Bob McKown,
Small world, I studied under Ed Parker, Danny Inosanto, and Mike Stone. Ed was a good guy, good technigue, and was for real out of the dojo. I loved those days in Pasadena Ca. I was at the Long Beach internationals every year. Saw Bruce Lee get his start down there. Joe Lewis, Tony Tullners, Steve Sanders, and many of the good ones. Before Holywood got ahold of it, it was serious as a heart attack. Loved those days. One of my childhood buddies was a body guard down there, I have thought about doing some dog stuff with him in his business. Remember Tac Kabota? Chuck Norris got his start a few miles down the road from Eds.
Back to the topic. I wish I had time to read all of the threads, but I will just say that it is easy to put too much emphasis on hackles. Hackles, like someone above mentioned is related to excitement, adrenalin, and excitement. Anger, fear, many things can produce hackles but you cannot say hackles means fear. It may mean fear, but it is not limited or restricted to fear. It can be the furthest thing from fear. One of my dogs shows hackles everytime she chases a little bird out of the yard. I have never seen hackles from her from confronting a man. My male shows hackles when chasing something running by our house, like a little dog. He is not afraid, he is excited. He shows no hackles under agitation, pressure from defense agitation or anything else. Way too many mistake or limit hackles to fear, when it may not be fear. I do not like to see hackles when confronted by a man, but hackles in themselves are not limited to fear or any other single stimuli necessarily.
by olskoolgsds on 13 February 2009 - 05:02
I just got to reading some of the posts and see you were involved in Kenpo K. As I mentioned in my post above, this was my passion for some years. Just like dogs. In fact, I compare PPD training in a sense to the Art. Funny, I don't have any contact with anyone from the old days, but once in awhile I go back home and visit the dojos, but then here it shows up on my other passion, dogs. It has changed alot. To much flash and Hollywood crap for me. I came in when it was new, and everyone was serious, not competition as much as reality. I don't want to derail this thread, it is a good one, so forgive me.
by Abhay on 13 February 2009 - 06:02
,,,,,,,,,
by Bob McKown on 13 February 2009 - 12:02
by Kalibeck on 13 February 2009 - 13:02
Just my 2 cents........when she's out in the yard my bitch will hackle at anything, run at it head up, tail up & wagging, ears up & stiff, bounce & bark a couple times until the intruder takes off, & then shake herself down & come running back, very sparkly-eyed & pleased with herself....obviously thinks squirrel chasing is great fun. The hackles up seems to be part of the game to her. She hackles at anything...sometimes just watching something quietly her hackles will raise & fall, & raise & fall....even if her only other reaction is twisting her head to keep observing. And when she hackles during play, she looks like she's been plugged in...hair poofing out everywhere. The few times she's put herself between me & a threat, she's hackled until she started barking, & it was different, just from the back of her neck to withers, & the croup hair rose. Her ears were forward, except when she was listening to me, she would swivel them back, then forward.
My male, on the other hand, will run out to whatever he sees in the yard, stop half way, stare at it, hackle briefly(they start up but go back down before they are all the way up) & start back after whatever it was. Always ears up, very quiet, serious. Tail lifted, but not up, no tail wagging. Lots of staring at it, & checking back at me, going toward it, sniffing. Very business like, no play. Once he decides it's no big deal, he turns his back on it. The time or two he's decided to put himself between me & a percieved threat, the first time he did hackle, growl, & bark, it was at a woodland critter, approaching us in the dark. He also rose hackles briefly when a delivery person approached me with a small package as he lay next to my chair on the patio. He was OK with the guy approaching, watching him quietly, but when he got about 8 or 10 feet away & raised his arm to give me the package, Beckett rose to a sitting position, ears erect & his hackles went up, & I could hear the quietest, whispery growl...at which point the guy yanked his hand back with a "Woah!" As soon as the guy stepped back Beckett went right back down fur flat ears relaxed, tongue lolling, like, 'Cool dude, just not too close.' I told him to down, & the was able to hand me te package. His fur was up for a second or two. I think if the delivery guy had said something, not just strode up to me & lifted his arm, Beckett wouldn't have even thought of him as threatening, but the guy seemed annoyed that he had to bring the package to me, but I couldn't get up at that point....I think Beck sensed the attitude....
To me, that thrill of adrenaline is what raises the hackles...not neccesarily fear....& true courage doesn't mean there's no fear....it's what the next reaction is, after the fear, or thrill, is felt, that matters. If there is still a clear headed reaction, the dog can deal with it. So is hackling inappropriate in either situation? jackie harris
by My Guy Kai on 13 February 2009 - 20:02
by july9000 on 13 February 2009 - 20:02
For some I would say yes..but for others this is not the case..Those dogs have more defensive drive..and somebody stated that usally decoys don't like to work with them and this is true..they are nasty and can be vicious around a decoy, meaning that sometimes they will bite somewhere else than the sleeve!! They work out of frustration..and can do a very good job but not easy to train..
I've owned a bitch like that..when she was on the field..she was at war..I loved her even thought she bite me out of frustration a couple of times on the knee.I always had to have a kong to throw during obedience or she would charge when I released her from the exercice..anyway she was something!!
But it is true too..some do it out of insecurity..that I would disquaify..
by olskoolgsds on 14 February 2009 - 04:02
Robert Trias, he was one of the pioneers. Him, Jhun Rhee, Tak Kabota and of Course Parker. I remember Lewis getting smart with someone at a Parker tournament, and Parker told him that he could deal with him (Parker) if he wanted. That was Ed. I might still have some photos around of me and Ed doing some technigue at a new school that opened. He was a great down to earth guy. You brought up some old names from the past. Take care.
As far as Hackles, I still say it is excitement, and this can come about under a number of circumstances. Fear is a type of excitement, but not the only kind. Many things can trigger hackles, but most of them are not bad, only the ones triggered by fear IMO.
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