What Is A Reputable Breeder? - Page 6

 People who think their dogs have better hips than the OFA said should go and pass a PEN HIP. It is actually the best way to calculate the laxity of the joints and the angle.

I have confidence in OFA. It is not anybody who reads those films but radiologist or orthopedist. At the Clinic where i work we send a lot and usually we are right before the result comes back.  The one we say souldn't pass don't pass and your regular vet should be able to tell you.

And they don't compare basset hounds and shepherd.  We have airedales and the Hip are quite different. Actually they don't look as good as GSD HIP. They always look fair to me but they come back good or excellent.

What people should do (and that is what I do) is ask the vet for a copy of the film so if someone wants to breed they an have a look at them and judge if that's what they need on their dogs.

July, I worked as a vet tech too and at one time I thought they didn't make any mistakes. When they screw up one of your own dogs, you might just change your mind. I've seen more than a handful of dogs that were rejected with the first xray, passed with another. The dogs I mentioned were littermates, both xrayed on almost he same day, one in Alaska, one in Utah. Bot got their failed ratings the same week. Both vets said - no way. They were done again, both got goods.  These are not isolated cases. It happens all the time.

I don't think Penn Hip will ever be accepted by dog breeders. First off, most don't even want to have a dog lightly tranqed for conventional hip xray let alone deeply anesthesized for the Penn Hip procedure.  BTW I feel xraying a dog without some form of tranquilization is not the thing to do. Some breeders I've talked to are not fond of having a technician try to force their dogs' hips from the sockets. The fulcrum xray and the Penn Hip scheme is nothing new. In the 70's a vet from the PNW, Bardens,was promoting a very similar procedure thinking it would do a better job of identifying dogs with a low level of HD; those dogs that would slip through the cracks  with the use of  a conventional pelvis film. It was almost a craze at one time. Dr. Riser, at Penn, ( the chief founder of OFA) started to palpate 8 week old puppies to determine if they would end up dysplastic. A good friend bought into riser's promotion, had several litters done and put down the puppies with the hip joint laxity, kept the ones that Riser said would never develop HD. You can probably guess how that ended. Of the ones they kept, over 50% xrayed with varying degrees of HD at 6  months of age. Who knows how the dead puppies would have fared. Many of us who have been around this for a long time remember all the fuss over palpating and a fulcrum xray and would not do it. For people with my mind set, Penn Hip is not and will never be an option for indentifying HD.

BTW Bardens also said that keeping a puppy crated for the first 4, 5  months of it's life in a kennel so small to only allow it to sit with it's rear legs in abduction would never develop HD. Sort of like using  a spreader cast on a newborn with HD. While that is interesting from an academic viewpoint, it's not very practical in the real dog world.

 Blitzen writes:

"I often wonder how many good dogs were trashed due to incorrect OFA/SV readings."

My response is this is exactly why a legitimate, reputable and responsible breeder SHOULD know what they are looking at and not solely depend on any rating. By this I mean that if a rating comes back worse than one thinks is evident, one should seek an expert opinion and consider re-doing. I would NEVER accept any rating that I felt was faulty until I had obtained confirmation from additional experts and, depending on their input, gotten new submissions. Therefore, I would not be trashing any of my dogs, but then again, I also think there is more to a dog than hips and elbow status. Luckily I have dogs with good hips and elbows even though I very rarely would breed.

Yes, it costs to re-submit. But it is crazy  to not understand that there are no SYSTEMS in any regard, in any walk of life, that are perfect. Unless and until smart computers and software do the measurements and readings and ratings, with human follow-up, there will always be some errors. As outsiders, we cannot know how many ratings are likely correct, but I would be willing to bet it is a high percentage.

Hell, on my submissions I am lucky sometimes if I can get a correct certificate because names are often misread and typed in error. The people who create those records clearly don't know foreign languages in the slightest. This also happens with the microchip registries in the U.S. ....what good is a chip if the damn people reading the applications make so many errors, including where I live?

It is a fact that all too many humans make all too many errors in everyday life. So all the more reason to know as much about important subjects and issues as one can and to double and triple check to make sure things are correct on important matters. When something is not correct, then see that it is corrected. Knowing when and how to ask questions is important as well.

Animules,I failed as the owner/breeder of both these test litters.Same sire and dam both never having been bred "Ever".Unfortunately I was not able to put them into working homes.So for me to give comment of what my definition of a test litter ...is meaningless.Best to ask everyone else what their definetion is.If you would like to ask why I bred these two individuals..that is different..as well as what I saw in the pups.

Rainhaus, you used the term which is why I asked for your definition.  Why use the term then say ask others for a definition?  If you couldn't place the first litter in the types of homes you wanted, why breeda second litter?

Hi Blitzen   I'm it  basing on OFAs database studies of breeding various phenotypes of dogs with known sire and dam hip scores  there were specific studies on OFAs big 4 GSDs Rotts Labs and Goldens and a total database study of all breeds together I think I have it if you send me an e-mail ..the better the phenotype the lower the rate of dysplasia in the progeny and high rates of fair occur in breeds with low rates of Ex and high rates of dysplasia I will see if I can find the reference

http://www.offa.org/pubinfo.html the first article ,if you scroll down it will show you the database study chart  fair to fair produced dysplasia at 5 times the rate of ex to ex the original study appears in the advocate about elbow dysplasia and later they did the other specific breed studies

Animules, Someone should start a thread as to what a test litter is.Maybe I will.What I did politely ask is how many litters per year?The first litter were sold on limited all into good loving homes long term.The second went to good loving homes without limited but a contractual requirement that the hips etc be done.They didn't go to breeders...PERIOD!!! The feedback that I am getting makes my heart warm.Hard to explain.

Panzertoo,In ref to OFA.Glad they started.But there cannot be a complete study unless all breeds..every litter is recorded.Even in that it is a crap shoot.There are so many variables.....

Rainhaus, sorry I didn't consider the way you asked as polite, more confrontational sounding to me. 

Quote from Rainhaus:  "Just curious,To everyone that responded to the original poster.How many litters per year do you have?I'll bet no one answers that question.If you do I will be very suprised."

As you saw, many answered.  The fact you insinuated nobody would answer ruffled my feathers.  There are many good breeders here that do follow the SV guidelines that do try and keep the breed true.  There are also some that don't.  As you saw many good breeders did answer you question.

Let's call it good and leave it at that.