GSD FCI and AKC Breed Standard Comparison Chart

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by Louise M. Penery on 18 November 2009 - 01:11

Sue,

You have a nice dog--love him, train/title him, and enjoy him. You don't plan to breed him--that's not an issue.

OTH, I have a couple of very respectable, V-rated, titled, SL males. However, I would be deluding myself if I expected them to go VA. OTH, the difference between you and me is that I purchased my boys, expected them to conform to the FCI breed standard as nearly as possible, and proceeded to have them jump through the necessary hoops to be breeding prospects.

Although they have AKC pedigrees and registration certificates (because they were born in the USA), all of their titles, show ratings, hip/elbow ratings, breed surveys, etc. are included in the SV's database because they were registered with the SV (white rather than pink papers) via the USA office. The same process of registering AKC dogs with the SV is (or will be) available through the WDA office.

by sunshine on 18 November 2009 - 05:11

I hate to take this off topic. I just would like to add something that I feel might contribute to the debate. As many different opinions there may be about the breed standard, there are about training dogs. I hope I am not talking out of place but at one point Wynn Strickland was considered Mrs. GSD. She does not in any way like the focused heeling of the SchH field. Her opinion is that these are "herding" dogs and should take in their environment and all changes and still be obedient and do their "job".

I remember a very correct Mal at a DVG Meisterschaft, who did not do all the drive work required, but was very correct in all of its work AND very calm. Not yapping on the long down. The owner looked like a sleeping tablet. But those two wound up getting second place AT the MEISTERSCHAFT.

The dog heeled without the focus heel and just was very correct. That too was an eye opener to me.

by Louise M. Penery on 18 November 2009 - 06:11

When my AKC Ch UDT, Ch UD dog, and other UDT dogs were winning in AKC obedience competition, the concept of focus did not exist. Nevertheless, my male was twice highest scoring champion (once under Wynn Strickland--at the age of 23 months) at GSDCA National Specialty Shows. IOW, they did not give the appearance of today's "sport dogs". Neverthe, they won Dog World awards for their obedience competition scores and titles.

by sunshine on 18 November 2009 - 07:11

You just have to try to do everything according to the ultimate standard, the road that is most difficult to take. And that is the SV Standard. Everything else is a loss. We need no more dogs in rescue, that is for sure. The value of these dogs is so underestimated because they simply have been overbred with sub-standard animals.

by sueincc on 18 November 2009 - 12:11

Louise please stop patronizing me, I did not ask for your opinion of my dog, and i really don't care what you think. My dog is bred to work, he is a sport dog, something you clearly have no understanding of. If I wanted a show dog I would have one, I prefer a working dog. You are trying to make this a show vs working debate which is not appropriate. You seem to be under the misguided impression that todays BSZS VA dog is the standard from which all others should be judged and it clearly is not. Again, that has more to do with politics than standards and here we are talking about standards - or at least we were before that subject was conviently changed. There are tons of "v" rated working dogs and "sg" rated working dogs and "g" rated working dogs. Those dogs AND MINE and YOURS do conform to the standard, because the standard does not demand perfection from every dog.

Kim I was responding to Louise's comments about my dog, not yours I didn't even read your remarks about my dog until now. Rest assured I am not overly sensitive about what you or anyone else has to say about my dog. The only people who's opinion of my dog matters to me is peoples who's opinion I value.

I believe many people are jumping to WDA because they don't like the amendment not because they like WDA or even think it's a better organization, and that is wrong and sad. They are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. I also believe many people are trying to justify their new found relationship with GSDCA by pretending what GSDCA has done to the breed isn't such a bad thing, and while that doesn't make me angry, it does make me throw up in my mouth, (just a little).

Good luck.

by Bob McKown on 18 November 2009 - 13:11

sunshine:

The ultimate standard is the Working Dog Standard. so yes I agree with you.

Come on Sue, you don,t think your dog can,t gate the fear in to a trespasser?

by Kim Gash on 18 November 2009 - 14:11

Sue - I don't think there are any new members or anyone finding a new found relationship with GSDCA and WDA over the USA thing. There are only about 750-1000 cross over members from GSDCA and WDA that have belonged to USA. Many are show dog people, and many like myself have working line dogs but live in an area where USA was already here with establsihed clubs and why reinvent the wheel to have expenses for another club - there are just so many dogs to go around, especially here in the midwest. The new amendment is going to force people like myself who feel its unfair to be limited to one club membership to form new clubs under WDA. I would much rather be free to belong to all clubs and rather than have my money go rather to paying insurance, underwriting my own trials and shows and just the general work of a club, to go USA, WDA etc. clubs that could use a boost and help make up shortfalls in expenses. Now I don't feel its right to give money to clubs where I have been told I cannot be a member of any other club. So that is my choice because every argument I see that Lyle faintly gave with no facts, just speaks to tear another down in order to protect oneself rather than be a better club and just outshine the rest - I am more of a be the best and they will come. Build a better widget and that's what people will buy.

All I have been trying to do with this thread is get people to think about what is best for them, but based on facts not veiled inuendos like Lyle stating that GSDCA does not go by FCI Breed Standards. That is a fallacy and while true in title, in content it was not. I sincerely doubt many people have ever read them side by side.

This arguement was posed by USA and compalined to the WUSV and the SV in 2000 regarding GSDCA - its the attack mentality instead of just simply being better, ala the restrictive membership amemdment. The SV at the that time, questioned GSDCA about it, once they had the meeting, USA's accusations were dismissed for lack of a better word, unfounded. USA has never disclosed that to its membership. Here is a response I got from Ken Downing, the president of GSDCA at the time, with all the hubbub, he is sure it will come up again:

Kim:
Right on all points! Your analysis of the standards is exactly what I discussed and pointed out as President of the GSDCA to the SV in 2000. As a result of these discussions and understanding, the pressure from the SV that the GSDCA make revisions in it's standard was relieved. I have no doubts that this will become a point of discussion in the near future.

I would venture to say that no one in the USA club has any idea how close the standards are and that would include the members of the GSDCA.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this and just maybe it will provide some education to those who want to learn. Regards, Ken

So - guess what - the SV went along with the AKC Standard - now in 9 years has anyone in USA ever bothered to tell anyone this as in Members? This is more of the lack of informing the members with what really happened and using inuendo not based in fact to justify amendments.

by sueincc on 18 November 2009 - 21:11

Such a statement would have made big news for GSDCA. If WUSV said the AKC GSD standard is not different from the FCI standard, I have no doubt AKC GSDCA and WDA would have made sure to publish the statement accredited to the appropriate individual who represented the WUSV in multiple magazines and newsletters including the AKC Gazette, the German Shepherd Dog Review, and the WDA magazine.

Can you provide a link or at least advise the name and date issued of any magazine or publication it appeared in?

It's my understanding WUSV requires it's members acknowledge the FCI breed standard. WDA is how GSDCA gets around that requirement since WDA uses the FCI breed standard, and not because WUSV thinks there is no difference in the standard.

by Kim Gash on 18 November 2009 - 22:11

Sue - that was an email to me from Ken Downing. I will PM you with his email and his phone number if you would like to call him. He is very friendly and happy to help all people. He is also currently on the board of GSDCA. Bob above has knowlege of it also. That's why the sound byte of Lyle's has carried no real importance to alot of people.

Insofar as recognizing the FCI standard like you think and have been told it reads, it does not say must recognize the FCI standard, it says : "recognizing the racial features of the German Shepherd as stipulated by the SV"

With that the SV can stipulate to what they want.

Anyway, GSDCA does not get around anything - they are compliant insofar as WUSV is concerned , if not they would be out. USA knows about the deal in 2000 because they were the ones that created the stink that caused the SV to talk with Downing for the GSDCA. He went to Germany during the BSZ and they went over everything. Like I said, feel free to call him or email him.

by Kim Gash on 18 November 2009 - 23:11

Also, if you would go over to my post regarding the WUSV votes, there is a link there to the WUSV Statutes, it is translated in 3 languages including English. You can read it for youself.

Also, I did go back on the GSDCA webpage, the minutes posted only go back to 2002 and I don't keep magazines past 1 year. Probabaly if you had been a member of GSDCA you would have read or heard about it.

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