Longcoats and breeding - Page 6

I see we agree on most aspects of this issue. However I see the issue in context of fielding top notch dogs to find lost and missing people. The fact that these throw away daughters and sons of VA dogs end up looking for people is a great service to us and honor to the work of the SV. It is an honor to work with them, the European Shepherd is the top of the top.

Including long stock coat length in a standard is a way of increasing the genetic base of our available gene pool. We could have a German Shepherd with the ideal mind, body and work spirit but discard their heritage by not using them for improving the breed because of longer hair. There was someone here that sounded like they wanted to remove coated shepherds from the gene pool all together and another one whining that they lost a show to one. That may happen quite often really, the total package with a coat is generally pretty sound, big bones, big heads, and big bites.

I agree about the show dogs you referred to, the AKC has done an excellent job with dogs no? They took the top line standard of a European GSD in motion and applied it to a dog standing still. So the AKC standards of a GSD is a dog with their ass 3 inches off the ground when standing and rolls their back knuckles when they walk. In any case I would say that long stock coated dogs fit the bill as having a more durable coat. I would venture to guess that it is a different set of alleles that determines the quality or presence of an undercoat. Long stock coat dogs bred with long stock dogs do not make not silky Shepherds, standard coated dogs do.

The reason this variety exists in the dogs DNA is because canines are one of the most successful animals on the planet. Their own genetic variation gives the dog the ability to occupy all climates. This is mirrored in nature with the wolves and coyotes. The coat of a Timber Wolf is just as legitimate as a the Red Wolf they are expressions of the same genotype, just a different phenotype. Who is to say that a true long coated Cher hair GSD does not have anything to offer? After all as you said yourself having a long shinny soft coat allows you in the house more easy then one rough and course. They are just surviving in our climate now.

I disagree with you about how a novice may view the SV. Politics and human nature are the major driving forces to many decisions that are bad.

Max, I am still looking for the answer to why the SV eliminated long stock hairs from being eligible for a breed survey. Was there a reason offered or did they just say  - this is the way it's going to be from now on?

Without having  actual experience breeding GSD's, I have to rely on my understanding of genetics so agree with you that a long stock hair bred to another long stock hair will probably not produce dogs with long, silky coats and no undercoat, but I don't know that for a fact. In my original breed, the Alaskan Malamute, we have longocats, we call them woolies. It is considred a fault and is inherited as a simple recessive too and the modifiers appear to act as they do with GSD's. No one I know with Mals would ever breed a woolie x another woolie, but plenty will breed one to a stock coat. Some trim their woolies and show them to AKC championships. A skillful groomer can almost make a woolie look like a stock coat.....almost LOL. I've never owned or bred a woolie, have always tried to avoid that since, in a sled dog, a long, soft coat is a death sentence on the trail. The standard does not DQ a long coat, but it does say - coats are never long and soft.

Anyway, interesting discussion with some merit on both sides of the fence I think. I guess there are far worse things than breeding long coats .  I'll do the breed a favor and continue to buy a dog when I want one rather than try to breed one for myself. I liked my long coat, he had a fantastic temperament and pigment, quite an impressive looking dog, but the grooming was very tedious, so I doubt I'll ever own another. My stock hair has made me too lazy to want to maintain another long coat the way I like to. I always made sure his ears and feet were trimmed neatly and put him in the grooming table every day. Blitz gets a quick once-through maybe 2 times a week. However, he has NO undercoat to speak of and he would not make it as a tending dog either in spite of his top coat's having a very harsh texture. It's all about the total package, isn't it?

Total package... yup... Total Package.... Not judging and patronizing by details and exagerations....  Remember that the GSD was founded and moulded as a helper of mankind... "Utilitarian pupose..." The GSD is designed not only to look this way but to act and think this way...  I feel in love with the breed because of its... INTELLIGENCE and UTILITARIAN purpose... If you have no use for the dog and you are just keeping him for VANITY... a caged animal... SHAME on you...  He is happy working... even if it working only as a companion to people who need them... But if you can't live with the GSD STANDARDS... don't breed... You're better off be breeding other animals... The GSD masters took a lot of effort to evolve the breed... If you love our breed... Keep its standards...

Blitzen do you have a picture of your dog with no undercoat? I'm not sure I have ever seen a dog with NO undercoat at all. All of mine have had them, just to varying degrees. That soft undercoat is what is stuck to me and my furniture constantly!

Do you mean Blitz? Yes, I can email you a photo of him if you like. He has a little undercoat, but it's very sparse and not nearly enough to be weather resistant. Hic coat lies very flat and close to his body. I don't know what a mole coat is, but he might have that .