The Pet Quality Pup Issue Again? - Page 6

Luvchzechdawgs:  How many dogs have you personally titled and sent to Nationals?

I didnt see your name on any dogs in my schutzhund magazine, in clubs in Ohio, Wi. Mi or any region up North......I say your pic in the group , but have not seen you title anything.......Are any of your dogs being worked for USA?

Share with us your expertise,  so we can critique like you do......

I used to do Schutzhund and be pretty seriously into it and poo-poo anything remotely AKC.  But honestly the most unfriendly, unhelpful, LEAST compassionate people I have ever met were in the Schutzhund club I attended.  I started doing agility and AKC obedience and I had fun.... I was shocked.  People actually cheered for others... no one in my schutzhund club ever did that... well, they did as you passed by, but then tore you apart after you were out of earshot.  I met some really reprehensible AKC people and some really nice SchH people since that time and have come to the conclusion that generalizations are generalizations because they are true in part, but not the whole.

Everyone on this board has an opinion, voiced or not.  Opinion is simply that, it is not truth, nor is it necessarily based on fact.  It is an overview of a lot of different things thrown together to produce one man's ideas, emotional reactions, decisions, and actions towards a specific topic.

Learn, be informed on actual facts, and form your own breeding plan, program and opinions.  Plan your work, work your plan.

Lisa

Luvmi - I no longer train in the sport of Schutzhund but since you stalk my site feel free to email me and I've provide every glory detail to provide your hiree. LOL

To the Poster of this thread.:    IMO   just to put my two cents in.....if the person with the gsd only putting a BH on his dog, to use with a female he has......because he ran out of money or time to fully work the sport and at least get a Schutz 1 on the dog  or do an AKC    tites , which are many,,,,,,and for fun also......then that person is not going to have time or money to breed those two dogs either....

Believe me,   as I watch several others , here in my area, and listen to them talk. at a recent trial, here,   in person,,,, it is very expensive to get both dogs ready for breeding , if done right.......the things to do are long,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in listing.......................

and the hours put into it are much longer.....money is endless,,,,,,,if done properly...................so beats me why someone is even thinking about breeding , with no time, no money , or no knowledge......if you spend time researching  how to produce a german shepherd worth having,,,,,,then you dont have to title,,,,but the necessary blood tests ,,,ofa ,   and health evaluations before you start the program ,,,,already took up the time you could have spent   titling or doing a sport with the gsd..

By no means,,,,if the dog and the owner dont enjoy the sport of Schutzhund, and they are not a team , a pair, and both enjoy it and dont force train,,,then the dog and that person better buy a pet at the pound or another breed of dog.,,, Titles don;t make the dog,,,they show that the dog can and did..........I have seen more horrible pups come out of the USA titled dogs then you can shake a stack of titled papers and kklza books at.....

But not titling for the reasons you speak of , in just a literal example, are  plain and simple not acceptable excuse.. It is a pride in what you are doing , that makes people want to title, or get some recognizable certicates on their males and females before they breed,   and  the sport is not for all people, not does it negate your beautiful male and female gsd....

Just dont use excuses to not perfect the two you are mating....and do the best that can be done with them or for them....You will live to regret it......as you will produce a can or worms and a lot of heartaches and a waste of your time and money...It will cost you your reputation in the community and a ton of money to treat what you produce . Even the top breeders run into all the wrongs that have to be crossed out, and all the rights that never turn out to help....but they love the breed and are driven to find the answers to what it takes to make the next breeding better and right......Do you have that kind of time and drive in yourself....first     and stick with it and iron out the kinks that it takes.......if you dont have the time ,,money or self esteem to endeavor it,,,,dont do it....titles or no titles..

4pack:  I am sorry that I make you sick (take two aspirin and call a vet ), if you were referring to me, and I believe that you were.  However, I would like to say that it is a wrong, and quite frankly, a stupid notion, that the description of a "pet" is as you described.  Many pets could wipe the kennel floor with many of these titled dogs.  At least half of the titled dogs I have seen first hand.  The "duds" are someones guess, and not necessarily correctly guessed.  When I do have a litter, I would appreciate it if you could come and separate them for me.  Put the future duds in one kennel and the future winners in another, so that when I sell them, I can price them accordingly.  As for me, I would not be able to tell one from the other at 8 weeks of age, unless of course one might have only three legs or have three ears.  Many dogs that have only one dropped testicle or three ears, could become Sch III, but they would be discarded by their breeders as "duds", and sold as pet quality.  Yes, I am famaliar with the various tests that can be performed on puppies to assess their potential.   They are easy to find on the net and in books.  But, lets face it.  Einstein couldn't even find his way around his campus where he was a professor, and Jackie Joyner Kersey has ashma.  I could go on and on.  I know for a fact that there are dogs in kennels, discarded by their owners for whatever reason, that could actually win the BSP, in the hands of the right trainer.

To quote someone else (or was it me), "give me a friggin break" with this holier than thou attitude.  Everytime I try to have a intellectual discussion, someone comes on here and uses the words, stupid, idiot, or similar words.  I never do until someone else uses them first, because unlike my dogs, I have been tested and passed, and I have (how did you put it), energy, drive and have  good enough conformation for show and enough (of all of these) for a full time job at work.

To think that all untitled dogs are duds and that the genetics they carry are less than the titled dogs (from the same litter even), is just silly.

I have visited kennels full of titled dogs, sitting in their kennels, spinning, barking, lunging, etc.  How many titled dogs make the news, having done heroic "things"?  How many families have untitled dogs that have made a bad guy think twice, and move on to the next house to burglarize?  The reason you see so many ads of titled dogs being petted and amongst children, is an attempt to alleviate the fear that many prospective customers have about having "bite" trained dogs around their children.  That fear is not totally unfounded, although overblown.

I have read "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture" by Stephanitz, from cover to cover.  How many kennels that sell hundreds of puppies from titled parents have actually done that.  I would bet, not more than half.  They pump out the duds and charge a thousand dollars (round figure), and sell them as either the next great dog or a pet, all with the same genetic make up.  My male is untitled, but every one of his litter mates is titled, with three of them being Schutzhund III.  My female is untitled, but everyone of her littermates is titled.  Does that mean that my male and female do not have the same genetic make up as their brothers and sisters, or does that simply mean that I did not title him and her, and that is the only difference?

lumidog, made the point that some dogs are not titled because it takes so much time and money to do so, and those that do not have the time to do so, should not be breeding, but then goes on to say that breeding and raising litters, if done correctly, takes a lot of time and money also.  So, I guess the point is, that if you do not have the time to do both, then you have no business breeding GSD's.  That cuts out anyone that has a job and a family, unless their job IS GSD's.  Just read the threads on this site about dogs purchased from titled parents worldwide, and about the titled dogs that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, etc, etc, and you should be able to understand my original point.  Yes, there are BYB and there are people that breed untitled dogs that do not fit that designation.  If you can't understand the difference, then take a high school biology class.

I think breeding titled working dogs can be compared to firing at a mid-range target with a shot gun loaded with buckshot.  Yes, you are aiming at something, you intend to hit something dead on, but the scatter pattern is there all around your intent.

Most litters have some pups who are not high drive, even from the best and drivy-est parents.  I see that as a good thing...there just are not enough people looking for top level Schutzhund prospects or future police dogs.  The "pets" could still do Schutzhund, can still be protective, could still herd, but just do not have as much prey and play drive.  I agree that with Do Right that there are some medium drive pets that could wipe the floor with high drive titled dogs.  I do not see pets as the duds.  They are all individuals, and can fulfill an important function in life.  The dog that defends my house or my kid is a greater dog that the one that gets high scores in Schutzhund, however....for me, those two dogs are likely to be the same dog, because that is what I am breeding for.

I just realized that not everyone has fired a shotgun loaded with buckshotor or it's been awhile since they have (me too!)...the result is a denser grouping in the center, with a scatter pattern around that.  What I meant is that you can hit dead center with your intent, but still have scatter around it. 

Veronica

Do Right, I wasn't refering to you, just the subject in general. Also I never said squat about titles. Not sure where you get I say titled dogs are the poo?

"Many pets could wipe the kennel floor with many of these titled dogs.  At least half of the titled dogs I have seen first hand."

I agree and I never said I could pick a winner or police K-9 at 8 weeks either. Refer to my "This is why I support the limited registration on all pups." Statement.

If the pup shows potential for breeding down the road and I don't mean just titles in Sch. You should all know by now, I don't think Sch titles mean a whole lot in reference to breed quality. If I bred dogs it will be for a real job, not sport. I don't mind watching a Sch trial now and then but I don't want to train for it myself. If I "need" my dog Sch titled to breed him, I will send him to someone else. Yes I am a bit lazy, more too busy with real life, work and paying bills, raising a kid, to bore myself teaching a Sch track at 5am.

The dogs I admire are SAR, Herding dogs, Police K-9's, military dogs, dogs for the blind. Dogs that have a real job, that make a difference in peoples lives. A sport is a sport, just as I could say most football players couldn't go out and flip burgers or teach a classroom full of kids, most Sch dogs are nothing but sport/enertainment for us humans. Thats fine and all if thats your bag. I' m saying, it's just not mine. I'm not satisfied with a game/sport. I don't want my dog to train as life is a game. I could care less if I get a Sch title on my pup or not. If I have the time I will, if not no big deal. If so and so doesn't breed to him because he doesn't havet hat title, so be it. I will use him if he fits into my standards.

I say "my" standards and any of you can be offended by that if you want. I think I keep my standards pretty high and I don't depend on breeding a litter to bring bread to the table, I don't have a need to breed. I have a want. I want strong, willing, stable dogs that can be put into a job and do it well. I want as many of my pups to go into service as possible. I wouldn't breed "for" pets because it is inevidable that some pups will drop out/fail and will be placed in "pet" homes anyway. I'm not in a race to breed, could be 10-20 yrs before I have a litter. I'm raising my pup now to be good enough to breed but if we don't thats fine. He still has value to me as my PPD, a teacher and companion.

My anger comes when people who have a GSD feel they need or should breed them. I have had 2 strangers in the last month ask about breeding their dogs to mine. 1 male 1 female. 1 guy didn't even know what lines his dog was so I had no idea if they were Show or working dogs. I just rolled my eyes and said please OFA and don't breed him at least until then.