steve lino - Page 6

I think there is a difference between "train" "coach" "do helper work" and "handle". All are part of the finished product.

If a helper just lets newbies "be a post" and doesn't teach the handler anything, then they haven't helped anyone, really. What you now have is a dog that is a better biter with an owner that hasn't a clue about the what's why's and how's. Tell me how that is good for the dog or the handler. Also, the owner still has to teach control in the protection phase.....

You can have the most well trained dog in protection, but if they can't pass obedience or tracking, then you have no title.

I'm with Molly 100% on this one. Complete respect and appreciation for the helpers, but I train my dogs.

So, the question is, did Steve Lino train 1000s of dogs? Maybe someone should clarify HIS meaning of "train"?????? And, understanding that people eventually do leave competition or retire for any of a million reasons, what are the puppies he's selling doing? Are they getting titles? Working somewhere?

so you can see what your dogs eyes are doing, read what its thinking,  etc from behind?? OK, you tell your helpers when to give a bite and when not to? OK  WHy is it that almost every experienced handler and helper team I've ever witnessed has discussed what they wanted to do, and the handler let's the helper work and train his dog.  I see I mis-spoke when I said he did this independent of the handler, cause it is a team effort ALWAYS.  There's no need to bring in, "well maybe your TD isn'tvery good and has to wipe the butt of every new handler, and all newbies just need to be a post.  I"ve never said that handlers aren't a part of the equation, and i've never said that helpers are entitled to all the credit that a handler and dog earn,  that's not what I'm saying so please quite putting words in my mouth.

sure the handler needs to learn control in the protection phase, and in those instances, the helper is just that a helper, there to give bites when the handler sends the dog for one for being correct, but I hate to break it to some of you, there are hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of bites that are given by the helper at his sole discrection to train the dog to get them to that point.

I still ask, is the guy that stands in front of 20-40 dogs a day every weekend, and multiple others during the week that only has 1 or 2 dogs that are his own only able to say he trains as many dogs as the person that brings 1 or 2 on a Saturday???  I've always said its a 2 way street, always will be.  I swear some just want to argue to argue, are you really trying to tell me that a helper is NOT training your dog during bitework??????? But I forget that on the internet everyone is perfect, they can and do, do it all every day.

zdog

Let's take a deep breath and we'll feel a lot better.  AAAAHHHH!

You are right.  A helper does "train".  He is a vital piece of the pie.  You and I are going to go around in circles because we may be arguing about two different things. 

I set my goals in training.  No one sets my program, not even on the protection field.  I tell the helper what exercises we are going to do and how we are going to do them.  If he sees something he will tell me.  WE will decide what We think is the best course.  It definitely is a team and the HELPer is out there to HELP you.  Not to train your dog.  It is sad that so many rely on their helpers to tell them what to do. 

Like I said, two different arguments.  The only thing I don't understand, is if I put a SchH 3 on a dog and my helpers never gave me advise or even went to the tracking fields with me, how can they claim to have trained the dog?  Most helpers will say, "I did the helper work"

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  We can talk all we want before and after, but with a dog on the field, everytyhing that happens is training, no time for talk. I'm very lucky that I can trust my helper to train my dog.  I trust that he knows how far to push in defense, when to push in defense, when to let the dog push him, when to use the dogs prey drive, when to channel defense into a prey bite, when to give the bite, when to frustrate, when to reward with a bite and slip, and when to get a good grip and drive, or bite, lock up and escape before the dog's grip starts to get unsure from too many quick outs, etc.

The only time I see helpers telling others what to do, is when they don't know, don't pay attention, or don't care.  Experienced people hardly talk, they just work the dog and talk later.

so, the guy that works 20-40 dogs a day on the weekend, and others during the week, but handles on ly 1 or 2 is responsible for training as many dogs as the person that shows up with 2 dogs every saturday? 

WHich is why I said way back in the beginning, its semantics, helper, coach, trainer, etc. If you don't think a helper is training your dog on the protection field, i guess I can throw some backhanded insults around too, and say that your helper probably isn't very good if he has to rely on the handler to tell him when to do everything, a good helper will let the dog tell him, and train the dog accordingly, and tell the handler what he's seeing on the other side of the dog.

anyway, i can only repeat so many times, i'm done

Don,

You are obviously an experienced handler/trainer and are able to make those kind of decisions and discuss with the helper what your goals are and how you expect them to be met. But for the novice handler, they rely a great deal on the TD's/helper's experience and knowledge to help guide them through the training of their dog. Therefore the TD/helper is actually considerably more involved in the training of the novice handler's dog than he would be with your dog. So a lot more training credit would go to the TD/helper than the handler in that situation.

I purchased a female pup from Steve about 1.5 years ago....She was a beautiful puppy by way of his stunning female Eicke...Through Murphy's law and a bunch of "schmidt" happens circumstances, I had to back out of the purchase at the last minute....I'm not a "backing out" type person; pops taught me to say what I mean and mean what I say....So, I was really down about the whole thing and downright embarrassed over the idea of going back on my commitment, especially since Steve and I had indulged me during many conversations about training and rearing these types of GSD's....Steve could have made me feel like a total schmuck...He was every bit the opposite...People can say what they want about his dogs, I can tell you that as a man, he was a first rate gentleman with me and a real mensch. I'm a big Steve Lino fan. Steve Lino, along with Andrew Masia of vonjagenstadt in Boca are two guys whom I know for a fact are breeding GSD's with a lot of forethought and dedication to the idea of producting shepherds that can work and work hard. I bought my wonderful  Xerox Leri by way of Vonjagenstadt and he's aces all the way!

Non sequitur?

I have personally dealt with Steve, when it comes to dogs he knows his stuff. He especially knows the dogs he breeds and when you get a pup from him you are getting top quality. He eill be there for the customer after the sale and when he tells you something about the pups he produces you can take it to the bank

Steve Lino is, what we call in the sport, "an institution".

SS

Joseph,

You are right on about Andrew.....I have Leri Gallon, which is your Xerox's 1/2 brother, I think----Xerox is out of Little Man?

Gallon is an awesome dog, and I am priveledged to own him.

I am looking forward to getting him titled, and taking him to the top of his potential.