RIP REAL workingdogs- bloodlines with charactar ? - Page 5

A couple of comments about dominant and defensive dogs. I have said, I believe there are very few truly dominant dogs. In stead, what you see are opportunistically dominant dogs who take advantage of a lack of leadership or expectations. Truly dominant dog are too difficult to train. Also, they are not that aggressive because they are so confident. Defensive dogs are reactive so they tend to need a stimulus to trigger their aggression. How is that useful for a police dog who is supposed to hunt a bad guy? There is no stimulus. That is one reason Malinios and DS's have become so popular as police dogs. They tend to have active aggression rather than reactive aggression and will get things going on their own rather than needing a stimulus to trigger them.

There were many more defensive type dogs(GS) in the seventies than you see today. How did they ever train them for patrol/police work? In the military in seventies America used no Malinois ( if you don’t believe me go look at pictures of Vietnam Nam dogs and you won’t see a Malinois) and extreme prey drive GS, yet they produced patrol, Sentry, Scout, Explosive, and Narcotic dogs that have documented histories of success. How was this done? 

Again, it’s not an either or issue. Not all dogs back then were high defense, but generally they carried more instinctive reactive aggression than dogs today....yet they achieved lofty results. Balance and strong nerve are key, whether you are high prey or high defense...unfortunately there are many trainers experts today that can only train/desire what is inside their box!

Apple, that comeback says nothing about me, but everything about you, enjoy your "wisdom "

The first thing that comes to mind is how effective were those dogs at detection compared to modern dogs with much higher prey drive. Today, it is not uncommon to see Labs or even Cocker Spaniels doing detection work because of their prey drive. The world or drugs and explosives has taken on a whole new meaning since the 1970's, so greater precision is needed. I see a sentry dog as having a stimulus, someone the dog sees, smells or hears that needed to be bitten, so a defensive dog would work fine for that. I'm guessing patrol dogs back then were used in a much different manner than patrol dogs are today, with there being a greater need for dogs to search for the bad guy now days. Then there is the issue of excessive use of force and society becoming so litigious. Bad guys get off on legal technicalities much more today than in the seventies, and their rights are protected to a different extreme. There is also the issue of the public perception/optics of GSDs used during racial conflicts in the US in the 1960's. The complexity of the world has been a factor that has effected the genetics of police and military dogs. Todays dogs need to accomplish their tasks more quickly and effectively and they need to be able to be under very good control. A tough, hard headed, defensive GSD of the 1970's is not as politically correct for today's times.

Duke,
"We can learn from wise words, little from wisecracks, and less from wise guys."

apple, 
The first thing that comes to mind is how effective were those dogs at detection compared to modern dogs with much higher prey drive. Today, it is not uncommon to see Labs or even Cocker Spaniels doing detection work because of their prey drive. The world or drugs and explosives has taken on a whole new meaning since the 1970's, so greater precision is needed.

i'm curious how the dogs at border, with their lacking prey drive, was so successful in tracking and detection for such long time?
b.t.w. beside tracking, selecting person by the scent of things and vice versa finding an object by the scent of particular person, was mandatory part of training.

I'm talking about detection dogs. A dog can be a good tracker without high prey drive. I don't think bloodhounds are particularly high in prey drive.

apple
locating stuff by scent is a detection. weapons, explosive, drugs, contraband, illegal by then anti-communist prints, etc. all that stuff have been searched for at custom cross-points by the german shepherd dogs. and guess what - i never heard any complains that they was bad in that and the border are in needs of labs and cocker spaniels.
i told it before and like to repeat - all that talks about need of prey drive in dog to excel in work is just sale point, if nothing else there to offer.

Just because has dog has good prey drive doesn't mean it can't have other desirable traits like defense, active aggression, etc. You seem to think it is black and white. It is like you think if a dog has high prey drive then it must not have any defense drive. Plus, people misunderstand prey drive and tend to think of it as some sort of weakness, which it is not. You might not need prey drive to have a dog work, but it is much more enjoyable to train and makes for a better relationship with your dog if you know how to channel it. Maybe it is a case of laziness or not knowing how to train dogs with good prey drive. It definitely requires more effort in some ways, but the payoff is worth it.

First, it takes more skill and knowledge to train a dog with less prey and more balance, in today’s world; because of the saturation of sport in breeding, selection and training.
Second, as I told someone over the phone today, when you start breeding FOR show, sport, political corrections, or a training methodology, then you are morphing the breed away from its versatile intent and functionality....and that is why the decline of the breed in functional areas and the proliferation of the breed in sport, show, and etc.

Sure, there are high prey dogs with good fight or defense traits, but these dogs are rare as the political correctness in the sport world prefers a high prey dog that is easily approachable. So the high prey dogs with strong hardness are not preferred, nor can achieve high points by any except few elite handlers/trainers....so these type dog slowly are fading from our selection process although they are useful for maintaining the balance needed so the breed DOES’NT become high prey with diminishing fight( in the working lines). 

Still, I realize the lure of the ribbons, trophies, and pride of my dog being sired by THIS dog.....smh.