Personal Protection questions - Page 5

"Lawyer crap" it may be, but in more than one place it is the law. I personally blame the insurance companies for not vigorously defending dog bite claims by trespassers and not lobbying legislatures more aggressively to remove "presumptively dangerous animal" language in statutes every bit as much as I do the ambulance chasers who represent dubious plaintiffs. As to the neighbor kid getting chomped in your yard while on his ladybug hunt, trespassing is usually a defense to a bite suffered on your property. The exception is that in many jurisdictions a minor child under the age of seven is NOT legally a trespasser when he or she enters your property without your permission, because the law doesn't consider children under the age of seven to be mentally capable of understanding property rights or in most instances capable of reading warning signs. So you will be liable for damages unless you can show that the kids' parents were negligent by not supervising their child. "It's easier and safe to say the dog bites when it really doesn't." Again, for the reasons stated above, I'd be very careful in saying this. You also need to consider that your dog who has never bitten before and whom you think never would bite may one day actually bite. No animal is 100% predictable.

Right again, no animal is 100% predictable as with any living, breathing thing. If I had a case of someone telling authorities my dogs were vicious, as some people have commented in passing, when they see them in their kennel. My kennel is on the side of my house and one end has access to the front, you can see the dogs from the street, sidewalk and my front yard. If a complaint was made, I'm sure animal control would be sent out to investigate and they have access to records. My animals are all clean of any bites and many of my neighbors would agree, my dogs are well managed and behaved. The dogs will put up quite a show of barking and teeth to anybody and I do mean anybody, besides myself and daughter. It is very intense and people gasp or back away very quickly. If I open the kennel and let the dogs out in my yard with the person/people they are fine, happy and looking for attention from the newcomers. Maybe a defensive protection of their own area? Anyway, people who don't know me or my dogs do think they are mean or will bite. If I am asked, I usually say yes they will. As stated earlier, they are not predictable and they may bite, if some foolhearted kid came over to "play" while I was not home. I wouldn't say they would never bite because I can't know that either. I think, I, the dogs, and others are safer if everyone assumes the dogs will bite. Any grown adult who asks if they bite gets a "you better believe it" or at least a "that one will". I have my dogs as a detourant to crime as well as my loved companions. Why would I ever tell people I don't really know, that they are friendly? Kinda defeats the purpose.

4pack, I never stated that you prefer "grey nut dogs". You need to read posts more carefully and be clear about what is being said specifically to you compared to general statements about conditions prevalent to the breed. What I did attempt to communicate to you is that you appear not to understand what a normal temperamented GSD is capable of as far as protecting his owner and family without any personal protection, schutzhund or ring sport training. Why not have professional trainer stage a mock attack on you at your own front door in a padded suit? In the last 40 years I have seen many GSDs who had no such training and appeared to have this normal temperament. I know of real time situations where some proved it without a doubt. Why do you insist on resorting to labels and immature name calling?: you refer to me as "know it all" and P59 as "more attorney stuff". You come off as an undecated ignorant person, when you probably really aren't. Why detract from your credibility this way? For most GSD "pet in the home" owners, I recommend no protection or Sch. training, as a correct, normal temperamented GSD properly selected can easily "do the job" to protect his family without the unnecessary additional liability. Most breeders of GSDs do not want to discuss these matters for liability reasons (those that market and train GSDs as personal protection dogs and sell them to novices can generate liability nightmares, especially when selling dogs with heavy handed aggression training to novices who don't have the capacity to handle such an animal appropropriately). I place a great deal of confidence in P59 and heed his remarks about the law carefully as he has shown himself to be very experienced, extremely knowledgeable and a great asset to this forum. Plus he has helped out a number of forum participants personally. Olskool, I agree with your comments. In spite of all the current bad breeding there are still many showline and working line GSD breeders in the world including USA, Canada, Europe and Germany (and even Mexico, South America) that breed GSDs with correct temperament. The dogs I am referring to with normal aloof and docile temperament have the capacity for extreme sharpness when appropriate and express it in proportionate steps as needed to "get control" of an aggressor or "unwanted turf invader". Most GSD buyers whether they say so or not at first will later admit that they want a dog that will be a good citizen and yet will provide potent protection against home invaders and deviants. Only a GSD with normal temperament as specified by Captain Von Stephanitz can do this reliably and effortlessly with no personal protection or sch. training.

k9hooligan, Hope you are taking this all in. Far more to the subject then you thought. We,all of us, can only offer our experiences, both good and bad. I was once told that a Rottie I had was too serious. Too " for real", and that she was. This person also told me that she would really hurt someone if she got ahold of them. This was a person that knew what they were talking about. I lived out of town and my wife and young children were often home alone. I told this person that I didn't care about liability, lawsuits etc. My family was what was important to me and because of my line of work I knew the potential of the " bad guys ". In the end YOU will need to do what you feel you need to do regardless if I approve, Joe approves or your insurance agent approves. It is up to you to take your time, weigh it all out and then do what you feel is best for all. Then rest in your decision. I will take no crap from people that desire to do harm to my family, PERIOD. But that's me. As far as the " Beware of Dog sign", yes in some instances that could be admitting guilt. When I had this dog I made a sign reading " DOG " then I sketched in ink a head shot of masculan gsd. I then put red drops below his mouth. I also painted the border red. This was a subliminal message. I wish I would have kept that sign. K9hooligan, hope you are getting some info that makes it easy for you to make your decision, not more confusion.My only advice is do not make your decision based on unreasonable fear. Remember, it's your call.

WOW, what a difference of opinions. I assumed that many on this site would offer to sell me dogs or training and only a few did. What I did not expect was the apparent "caring" that has been exhibited here, for someone you people don't even know. I have been in contact with two people via email and one person on the phone. Talking with the one on the phone and reading this site and other sites about personal protection dogs and such, it is overwhelming, the amount of things to take into consideration when wanting a protection dog. I have not made up my mind completely yet, however, at this point I think the prudent thing to do would be to get an adult, obedience trained dog that is of a breed that normally gives someone pause, before they would illegally enter my property. The dog may or may not help in a bad situation, but if a bad situation occurred without the dog there, I would be in the same place I/we are now. I can only assume that unless we have something that no one else around us has, that someone out looking for opportunity to steal or other such bad things, would most likely note the dog and pick on someone's elses property. I don't like the idea that I would re-directing a bad person towards someone else, but my home comes first, and others need to do what they need to do, for their homes. If I do not get the dog trained or purchase an already trained attack dog, I should be okay with normal precautions for misguided children, etc. I am sorry that some here were at odds with each other, but it wasn't bad. I have read other issues discussed on this site and sometimes the arguments can get vicious. Thanks to all for their advice and guidance. I will be visiting this site when I can, to learn more. Now I have to decide what breed I want. Starting out with big, and going from there.

K9hooligan, I went from the Trev, to the rottie, to the GSD. I grew up with personal protection. The Trev were to much like machines for me. I like the dual purpose dog (pet and protector). I love the rottie heart and soul. However, It is to hard to travel with them, vets are hard to come by and more and more they are being banned in certain areas. I do not want to move, because I would, not sure where I could go for acceptance. It is a nightmare once your insurance finds out you own one. The GSD is better balanced for acceptance. I also find them quicker to learn and just as handy for protection. Now for your comment on Hair and shedding. I can tell by your statement you have never owned a rottie, they shed more than a GSD has hair. If you keep them brushed, it is not bad. The GSD also has a longer life span. If this is your 1st time owning a GSD or Rottie or ?. I would also suggest you get a female, especially if you are thinking young adult. One other thing, The GSD is so loyal to their home, if they are rehomed, until they bond to your home, they will try and leave, to go home.

Read Willam Koehler book The Koehler method of guard dog training..This book has been around awhile but worth reading for several reasons. It will open your eyes to the responsabilities of owning a PP or guard dog..

The laws can be different depending on where you live but I was told by k9 cops, an attorney and the chief of our police dept. that you never want to put "beware of dog" signs or signs with a dog snarling showing teeth but merely a sign that displays a dog (could be a poodle who'd know??) lives at that residence. I have 2 signs at my property; the first one is a picture of a GSD and says NO TRESPASSING (now I've advertised if you don't belong here -GET LOST, you aren't welcome) the second is on the gate of my 6ft privacy fence and it has a GSD shown and says "I can make it to the fence in 2.5 seconds; can you?" lol I'm not telling you my dog's mean, bites but perhaps letting you know he's a GSD and he's "fast". lol My insurance company never asked me in 12 years if I even owned a dog until I moved recently and added another homeowners policy. When asked what beed of dog they said the GSD is not categorized as a "dangerous dog". On the legal standpoint in the event your dog does bite someone it's always gonna warrant an investigation, humane agents blah blah blah but I was told IF you have properly posted signs, your dog is in your yard contained and some nut decides to scale the fence cause he thinks your dog is all show and no go it's likely he'll be assed out if he sues you. My personal philosophy is if you tried to physically hurt me or my kids, broke into my home, were prowling in my backyard and my dog bit you then I'd rather take my chances with my homeowners paying on a claim then dealing with a much more tragic personal ending. Just my 2 cents!

I have always heard the same thing about the warning signs. Biggest threat we have are idiots who want to sue everybody.

I agree with alot that has been said here but had a few more comments. You mentioned you did not want to use a gun because a gun can be taken from your wife and turned against you and her, and you don't see your wife answering the door with a gun. There are a few more things to take into consideration. A dog can be killed too. If somoene REALLY wanted to, they could just shoot the dog. I in fact know of a case not too long back where burglars wanted in and they killed (stabbed to death) the family labrador. A gun cannot be "killed". Also, a gun does not think for itself and has less likelihood of being "wrong" and hurting the wrong person. YOu are in more control over it then you would be a dog. I am not particularly advocating a gun per se, but just saying there are pros and cons to any type of "security". A gun also does not require the amount of care, food, cleaning up after, boarding when going on vacation, and time as a dog does. You should probably sit down and write out the pros and cons to every type of protection and then take those each into consideration. It IS a living breathing being we're talking about here...I get kind of sick of people treating them like they're nothing more then a tool with teeth. Also, glad you're doing your research. Make SURE that if you DO go this route, and DO find a reliable and respectable provider for the dog, that you are completely honest about your (and your wifes) ability to handle a dog. Nothing could be worse then acting like you know what you're doing if you really don't. I was selling my older dog last year and he would have made an excellent personal protection dog. In fact, he DID act as a buffer a few times for me (I'm a single female dog trainer, oftentimes teaching classes alone at night). I had someone want to look at him who said they had "lots of experience handling personal protection dogs". Yeah right. The first time they saw the dog bark at someone they freaked out about how dangerous the dog was. And that was just because he barked at someone. (he is now in an excellent home btw). Also, I had an instance here where there was someone with a gun on my street who was evading police. I saw him coming down the street. My thoughts were a bit crazy at the time...but ya know...I wasn't thinking about how the dogs would protect me. I was more concerned about the dogs that were outside thinking that either the criminal or the police (because if they're chasing somebody and my dog tried to bite them, they just might) would shoot my dog/s. That's the last thing someone should have to be worried about in a situation like that. Granted it all turned out ok in the end...and I was glad my dogs were around...but one thing many people fail to recognize when they're first looking for a dog as a protection source is how attached they might become to the dog. Just some thoughts!