hard dogs - Page 5

we have 2 very , very hard dogs , you meet them when you drive to my house

Aha discusion worth the thread space it's on!

realcold, 10-4.

Been to busy for this site, but had to take time for this thread, too interesting. Since this is somewhat subjective, and I don't know who has the exact definition and terms seem to change over the years, I will just do like others and offer an opinion. Drive, Drivey, high pray drive does not= hardness. Hard dog may have good drive but does not define hardness. Many dogs have good drive but little hardness. Takes corrections very well, does not= hardness. Hard dogs take corrections very well, but taking corrections well can be attibuted to drive. High pray drive dogs, intensely focused, A.D.D. dogs, dogs that block everything out but the stimulas focased on will take a good correction. The correction is merely an annoyance that disturbs their focus. Handler aggression, does not equal hardness, though a hard dog should not put up with unfair or over-correcting. Either of the above should warrent the dog showing his displeasure towards the handler in talking or more. I simply will not correct a dog for defending itself if I have over corrected or been unfair, asking too much. This I expect from hard dogs. Handler aggression that is not related to hardness is a dog that is picked on, teased, and has not bonded with it's handler. Sharpness does not= hardness. Though a degree of sharpness should be present it depends on what type of sharpness. I think many U.S. people look at sharpness as fear motivated.

olskoolgsds, I think you've told us everything that you think hardnes is NOT. Please give your definition of hardness. And I guess I'm one of those silly Americans. I believe a sharp dog is a weak dog and it's genetic.

True sharpness is a dogs point of engaging. I believe a good sharp dog simply will not put up with too much crap. Sharp dog says " If you screw with me I will screw with you and I will win if it comes to that. Personally I do not see it as much of a quicker response to a percieved threat, thus going into defense drive, as much as the dog simply has a shorter fuse and will react to less annoyance. Sharp dogs for me means they are somewhat quicker to the draw. There is a fine line here in what is acceptable and control is a huge issue. I believe a little sharpness goes along ways. For me, hardness is a dog with HIGH COURAGE, BOLDNESS, WILLINGNESS TO TAKE ON ANY NEW ( EMPHASIZE NEW) challenge. This dog is not effected by pain, not that he has a higher pain threshold, but that the pain is merely an inconvenience. Pain should actually stimulate more,to a degree, for a hard dog. Hard dogs should recover quickly from excessive aggression towards them. They have the right to run if attacked by a Bull, but should come to a point quickly when they say to them selves " wait a minute, nobody chases me around" and turn and engage with a different approach this time but none the less he is willing to go back to meet his challenger.

Spook, I am cutting these up so I don't loose them, my computor does not give me much time before they get tossed.Hardness to me also has a degree of aloofness to it. Hardness is something a dog is born with. You can enhance it with training, socializing, imprinting, but you will not make it more then what the dog is. If you want hardness, look for breeders that have this as a high priority, that is if you want the odds in your favor. These opinions can be argued, as they are just that, opinions. I am basing my opinions on years past and would not argue that others may have a better definition of hardness. P.S. Unfortunatly, sharpness is often associated with fear. But a good healthy sharpness to me is simply a dog that is more aloof, not easily won over. He is the guy in the bar that says to a heckler, " leave me alone", when it continues he does not plead his case, he simply takes care of business. He does less bluffing and more back up.

Spook,in the past Sharpness was entirely thought of as fear motivated. This is not because us Americans are "silly" but becaue we had soooo many fearfull dogs that were fear biters. They percieved everything and everyone as a threat and if they felt there was no way out they would bite out of fear. Like pole training pushes a dog to defend itself when he would rather run. I think the idea that Sharpness is fear motivated comes from the days when the gsd was doing so poorly in the U.S. before the importing got popular. Americans for the most part did what we do best, mass produce and go for outward beauty. ( Before people get mad this does not mean everyone, just many.) Sharpness in countrys that breed for hard working dogs want some sharpness. The problem we are having here is one of terminology and definitions. Hope this helps.

olskoolgsds, I guess it's all in the definition and I'm afraid I'll disagree on both points. (Of course I'm just a youngster at this with only 18 years exposure.) I believe we'll get more and differing opinions on this subject.

Olskool, once again on point with your assessment. Back in 73 we had a mine and tunnel dog that had returned from Nam(at Ft. Benning)named Jake. Now Jake was nine years old and the only dog in the scout dog detachment that didnot live in a kennel. He was a black and tan rangy GS that would constantly pace so they kept him on a chain with doghouse off the ground. If you ventured into the reach of the chain he would scare the sh-t out of you. Jake could only be handled successfully by the old handlers that were E-6 or better. When it was training time he was the most hardheaded dog I had seen to that point. When he worked a problem he would walk down the lane laced with trip wires and mines. In practice we would have the tripwires across the path and if the dog broke it he would be corrected. If 4 tripwires were laid on the trail they would attach a bomb simulator to one of them to emphasise to the dog what happens when you break that wire. Jake would walk down the trail and come to a trip wire and blow right through it. The correction for him doing this is what required an E-6 or better. Jake would nail you for the correction, and if you knew how to CORRECT that nailing, then you could continue down the track. But it was a fight, believe me! But whenever Jake came to a wire with a simulator ATTACHED TO IT he would sit and indicate every time. Now a young handler would not have a chance with Jake because you had to go ten rounds with him everytime you gave him a hard correction. Now this is why he was so hard, I've seen Jake really jacked up MANY times for handler aggression after a correction but it NEVER deterred him. He also knew the difference in a skilled handler/trainer and a young handler. Matter of fact if a young handler came to the detachment with a cocky attitude, they assigned him Jake and believe me Jake never let them down. But in the end he was a remarkably accurate dog on real explosives, he just didn't like practice(Allen Iverson). The dog was hard and I never saw his spirit broke though I saw him have some intense Jesus meetings with the older sarges.