IN THE BEGINNING-The START of the Breed - Page 5

There is a big difference between ninety degrees and one hundred and twenty degrees, the judge Jemi quoted had a problem with the ninety degrees. Jemi has the education to have read that part and her profession should demand clarity and objectiveness, she instead chooses ambiguity and emotion and is willing to use misleading statements in order to make people react. She cares not about educating people, but has made a lot of money off of sensationalizing an issue that is real. This is a big problem with the media today, they do not care about the truth they wish only to lead people to act from their emotions not their brains. 

Now this is getting more confusing.  These are not poorly written standards, just the interpretation.  So the breeders, and judges misinterpreted the written standards. They breed towards these misinterpretation producing over-angulated, and roached backed GSD.  The judges awarded them as correct form...and so on.  

Are these judges acting on their own, independently?  Or are they sanctioned by kennel clubs who made these standards?  I want to know.

Jemi,
I don't think the SV or the FCI "sanctions" what a (non-SV) judge
in the UK gets up to, for example.  The UK Kennel Club does not really
'police'  IT'S own Standards, let alone international ones, by watching
the judging at Shows eagle-eyed, or minutely studying the Results sheets,
and the WUSV & FCI tend to leave it up to the KC or equivalent in each
separate country . 

Think you are confusing this "blame the Judges" viewpoint with
what happens GRADUALLY in a breed, over a period of time.
When a majority of judges repeatedly select certain types over others,
that ends up being what the regular Show breeders aim for in their
breedings, 'cos that is what is winning.  Ergo, both breeders and judges
bear equal(ish) responsibility;  and all kennel organisations have some
responsibilty too, for steering this process.  Equal blame all round, IMO.

But you need to be aware of another factor too - that sometimes all
is not as it seems to the observer, and different people see different
things - the slight upward curve of the spine on the contemporary GSD
being a perfect case in point.  To some, every degree of this is a 'roach'.
To others, unless the back is noticeably overbuilt and / or even 'hinged'
it is quite normal, indeed even desirable. (Some actually desire that
extreme itself !  So if their bitches or chosen studs have hinges, it  follows
that at least some of the puppies they breed will also have toplines like
that.  And their puppies thereafter.)  There will always be some afficiandos
of every breed who like one 'type' more than another, so there will always be
variations.

Sometimes that becomes a bad thing and threatens the health of the breed
or individual dogs within it, sometimes it shows in taking the whole breed in
a GOOD direction ...

Please don't let me get started on the health implications (or not) of a raised
topline, as it will take this thred off-topic, and its all been rehearsed before
on PDB.  Do a user search on it and you'll see what I mean.

hmm..sounds like a rogue organization, acting out of control, and where facts and words collides.
 

Eh ?  How do you make that out ?  Organisations, "rogue" or not, cannot
control peoples' thought processes, likes & dislikes, can they ?  The level
of 'organising' by national Kennel Clubs varies,  I don't know exactly what
goes on to assess Judging ringside in Germany, but the SV system is other-
wise very strict, yet many argue the breed has gone 'wrong' there.  Any sort
of systems used organisationally in Germany have always seemed anathema
to the Brits;  there is a degree of that with Americans too, dunno about the 
rest of Europe and the world.

Some of how judging impacts on a breed when it veers from the written Standard
is about how well the judges are trained / educated  (and who by !) -  the UK
system of judges education is seminar-led, with no ringside assessment, but there
are plenty of calls for ringside work on the skills of judges - see the dog press, in
any given year ! - and so far this suggestion has not been taken up by the KC,
possibly because it would be complicated to administer.   What is YOUR suggestion
to get round the problem ?





 

within these politically correct organizations, it is somewhat impossible to breed back the GSD to its functional form.  They are hard-wired to a different program that runs their system.  Adding to these complexities are the judges?, educated and trained by the kennel clubs to misinterpret their club's written standard?  Comparing today's GSD to the GSD's of like the 60's is mind-boggling, structure wise.  But opinions vary, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The consolation of some GSD lovers are the fact that there are some working GSD breeders that breeds good structured dogs,  they are ruled by their common sense that guides them.  But, what is sensible to these working line breeders, is totally nonesense to these roached back, overangulated breeders, and vice versa, and the debate goes on.



 

"Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim"

No other breed of dog has been tasked with wearing so many different hats, tracking dog, seeing eye dog, herding dog, police/military K9, The only thing the modern show GSD is good for is being a couch potato. 

A physically sound GSD should be capable of doing this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJzMmK93-7k

Kyle

I must admit I do struggle to follow what some people mean by "good structured dogs".

If the dog is healthy and physically capable of running fast, slow long and slow, jumping as demonstrated by that video and this corrobarrated by health tests etc then surely this is right.

Does the "good structured dogs" referred too by the Show People refer to what looks good, or some perception of proportions and measurements over natures function over form.

I only ask because I genuinely don't know

Thanks 

Ronin

My very Germanic, UK bred, Showline male, nearing his 11th birthday,
recently survived an accident with a car that, by rights, should have left
him dead in the road.  I have ascribed his survival without a single broken
bone to the fact that he is 'solidly built', and fit.  Don't believe in miracles.
So although there are people to whom his modern international structure
is the worst thing ever to happen to the GSD breed [!],  I will continue to
prefer it, on the grounds that it has to be pretty strong.

Ronin I struggle also in trying to figure out what people are referring to in this thread. This thread started with examples of dogs that Von Stephanitz himself placed in the showring, examples that seemingly show an evolution in the breed by the founder himself. Rather than trying to figure out the context or reasoning for Max's placements or even if they were consistent within his tenure in running the SV instead this thread was taken as an opportunity to condemn showing, the people who show, all show dogs, the breed standard, and probably another idiotic statement that I forgot. If I take the logic expressed in this thread I would assume that all show dogs including West German and American lines are exact copies of one another, I could also assume that all working lines no matter what their breeding are exact copies of one another and all are capable of the same feats. I would also assume that all show people know one another and can speak for each other. I would also assume that all working.people never show their dogs and all show people never work their dogs. I believe Kyle's video makes a point but his statement regarding show dogs is wrong. I am not going to take anything away from the dog in the video but I don't think what it is doing is exclusive to it's line. From what I could tell in the video the dog has a front very similar to West German conformation dogs and it's top line slopes down, there is a variety of structure among the dogs in it's pedigree.     Ronin some people see a dog's ability to do a task and that proves it's structure. I tend to first observe whether the dog's structure is balanced as a whole and then I will observe the parts as it is working and I will consider if it is benefiting the dog. I also like observing the dog's body language, confidence level and what is going on inside it's head. I am sure there are plenty of show people that give no thought to structure beyond how it is expressed in the ring, the percentages are probably not good for the breed. But there are show people that do have a very good knowledge of structure and are good at explaining how each part impacts the dog and those people are usually trainers also.