What makes a belief a "Religion" ? - Page 5

Even more of an interest I found this, rebutting the idea professed by Felloffher, "The supreme court didn't rule that Atheism is a religion, it merely grants those who choose not to identify with any religious group the same protection under the constitution."
 

http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=742

"Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that for her occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion."

"We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. See Reed v. Great Lakes Cos., 330 F.3d 931, 934 (7th Cir. 2003) ('If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.')"

This is, essentially, the basis for their decision. They have, in the past, considered atheism to be a religion in the specialized sense that atheism, like theism, specifically addresses the concept of god for the individual. This definition is an attempt to address the implied protections guaranteed by the First Amendment.

"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions"

I disagree with you that atheists do not understand their own personal philosophies. By definition we don't believe in the existence of a god and it's as simple as that for most of us.

A bit too broad here; my observation is not universal of all atheists.  What I am pointing out, is that awareness is at a premium.  Your second statement proves my point, where you indicate that for most of you, it is simple as that.  Though it's not a crime, understand, that simply because one fails to comprehend or define a concept does not mean they are not subject to, or a participant of that concept.  The human race is an inquisitive sort, asking and answering questions from the beginnings of civilization.   Whether an individual possesses those answers or not does little to negate the existence or impact of those questions, or the extent to which they are effectual answered in behavior.  The power centers are well aware of this, and rarely engage the public directly on such matters, because not only do they believe it's "above" the average joe, but because it makes subversion easier.  There are exceptions to every rule, but the rule today, is that most inherent what they believe, lack any real connection to it (particularly in the West), but are instead manipulated, largely because of a an enormously self-absorbed, self-centered existence from which they rarely even surface for air.

Bee,

Ok if you want to call Atheism a form of religion in a specialized sense go for it. It is really splitting hairs don't you think?

Carlin,

IMO the self-centered nature of Western society is the result of our pursuit for individual freedoms and our quest for individual recognition. This affect is compounded by our shallow consumption based economy. In North America the traditional values of the nuclear family are gone, we now live in a multi-cultural society where individual values are as diverse as the population. The result, religion under the banner of one god is no longer an affective means of controlling the population or creating social cohesion. Modern Socialism and the PC movement is most certainly not the answer, these ideologies have created an even bigger mess in most left leaning countries.

So, what is the solution? I honestly doubt there is one. However, a great start would be too pull our collective heads out of the sand and start addressing the issues that challenge our very survival as a species on this planet. The next step is to accept the fact that there is no god coming to rescue us from our selves. How many times have you been involved in a conversation discussing world events or the condition of our planet and heard "oh well Jesus is coming back soon and it will all be better". This mentality is infuriating. End of rant.

Just responding to the thread Felloffer, isn't that what we do here?   In your response to Carlin, I will say that I agree with the last few sentences in your "rant" dealing with the frustration at people who won't help themselves, choosing to do nothing because of certain beliefs in Jesus and the hereafter. They would have it wrong in "my" book, too.  An example that would make this obvious to me would be when harm is apparent, like parents who deny medical care such as blood transfusions or cancer care in favor of a prayer "cure". 

Bee,

 I asked the question looking for an honest answer, I wasn't being malicious.


 

IMO the self-centered nature of Western society is the result of our pursuit for individual freedoms and our quest for individual recognition.

I think those are two very different and independent ideas.  The pursuit of freedom need not culminate in a completely self-serving environment.  Instead, freedom allows the opportunity to choose otherwise.  The recognition of others would seem to be the simple breakdown of character.

religion under the banner of one god is no longer an effective means of controlling the population or creating social cohesion
 

If we are talking about the United States, the original context was that religion was not a means of control, thus the separation of church state.  The foundation is overwhelmingly Christian however (influenced significantly by the Reformation), and the prescribed form relied heavily upon individual constitution. 

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge . . . would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."  - John Adams.

There are many reasons for the breakdown, and a quick look at the behavior and moral bankruptcy of much of the conservatives themselves is a great place to start;  the capital absolutizing economy you mention is another.  I agree that socialism is not the answer, unfortunately, I suspect a huge number of people who support the progressive movement do not understand that the progressive agenda is Fabian socialism by another name, while the Europeans have no problem calling a spade a spade.  The solution, wow.  I think we need to begin with what we agree on.  I am a devout Christian, but my faith does not preclude the making of rational decisions every day.  Do I believe Christ will come, sure.  Is my life defined by musings of when, no. 

↵Ok Felloffer. What I think. It doesn't matter too much to me, because I don't have a problem living and let living. The problem stems from this part that Carlin mentioned in his post above, 

The power centers are well aware of this, and rarely engage the public directly on such matters, because not only do they believe it's "above" the average joe, but because it makes subversion easier. 

 

This is where it all gets messy and bloody. My point is that at both ends of the spectrum we have encountered "power centers" that have been responsible for persecuting their "parallel" other half. It makes no sense to me to say, Christian zealots have killed more than say, atheist zealots as a way to lend support to a philosophy embracing a lessor evil, because we don't know how that statement will fare over the course of time. It does seem to be tipping in a self-glorifying direction, the defectors perhaps of the "enlightened" Christian faiths, which one must note, singularly excludes the Muslim faith. 

I don't profess to have all the answers. However, courteous discussion does have a way of humanizing us all, and if as people we see each other as more alike than different, it should then be very difficult to want to eliminate one another.

 

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I should have used a link on that graph I posted... It is from a Harris Poll...

While Most Americans Believe in God, Only 36% Attend a Religious Service Once

a Month or More Often 

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/vault/Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-While-Most-Americans-Believe-in-God-Only-36-pct-A-2003-10.pdf

Bee,
polls are disinformation and I've seen others that dispute yours.
A poll is the easiest thing to manipulate as anyone should know already, they are meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

Your passage about Christian and atheist zealots is amusing.

As for an atheist practicing some form of religion, being considered a religion, hogwash.
We all know where this came from as per the OP.

His mind is twisted even to his own kind.

WE ARE ALL THE SAME, and most rational people know this.
The world (mankind) would do much better without these superstitions that divide us.

Moons.

 

The fact the poll exists is not a problem Moons. Take it or leave it. I used it as proof to a population of like thinkers. Something that was being attempted as incredulous. You haven't an answer for any thing except a torch. You seem not to understand a give and take conversation. Your amusement is irrelevant to me. 

When the actions mirror the words, "WE ARE ALL THE SAME, and most rational people know this.", of those who say it, the world makes more sense. The ones outside of what you call "rational" are the one's that are dangerous.
 

Carlin,

Yes, it is the recognition of other's that seems to be the break down and it is an abuse of freedom. The difficult part is where do we draw the line on individual freedom. There is an obvious need for the change, but it is difficult to pin point how to facilitate this on a level everyone can agree upon. At least you are open to the idea.

Christianity in America has played a significant role in manipulating and controlling the population. A large number of Americans base their opinions on everything from the environment to politics and everything in between, based on book written thousands of years ago. This religious bias extends into political office and contributes towards how social and foreign policies are implemented. Do honestly think Americans would give a rats ass about Israel if they didn't believe it was the "holy land"?