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by Shtal on 24 December 2012 - 05:12
Felloffher wrote: Not so fast. If the cyclical universe hypothesis can be realized, how will creationists attempt to reconcile this with the accounts in Genisis? I beleive it will be the final nail in the coffin for Christianity, Judism and Islam. However, it still wouldn't rule out the possibility of creator, just the man made gods we have today.
If we to believe that everything in the universe must have a cause; and logically speaking that there was a creator that caused the universe into existence, the laws of the creation does not necessarily affect the actions of the creator. If we are going to assume that there is a creator of the universe; If he created everything around us, everything we see and don’t see, and one of those foundational principles of the universe is that everything must have a cause; it still does not mean that the creator is affected by it. So therefore the creator does not necessarily need to have something that caused it to come into existence; the creator is not subject to the laws of his own creation.
And you believe in science and so do I and things we see around us happen for a logical reason does not immediately rule out the existence of a God. If God worked through the natural laws of the universe and was subjected to them, then everything is fine. Just because one exists does not negate the existence of another. I believe Einstein called religion and science "non-conflicting magisterial" meaning two of them just fine.
If we to believe that everything in the universe must have a cause; and logically speaking that there was a creator that caused the universe into existence, the laws of the creation does not necessarily affect the actions of the creator. If we are going to assume that there is a creator of the universe; If he created everything around us, everything we see and don’t see, and one of those foundational principles of the universe is that everything must have a cause; it still does not mean that the creator is affected by it. So therefore the creator does not necessarily need to have something that caused it to come into existence; the creator is not subject to the laws of his own creation.
And you believe in science and so do I and things we see around us happen for a logical reason does not immediately rule out the existence of a God. If God worked through the natural laws of the universe and was subjected to them, then everything is fine. Just because one exists does not negate the existence of another. I believe Einstein called religion and science "non-conflicting magisterial" meaning two of them just fine.
by J Basler on 24 December 2012 - 05:12
Thats why its called
THE CHOSEN FEW AIN'T ALL A BE GOING.
THE CHOSEN FEW AIN'T ALL A BE GOING.
by J Basler on 24 December 2012 - 05:12
Take a tab of acid then you will have all the proof you will need. Thats what i read anyway.
by Shtal on 24 December 2012 - 07:12
J Basler,
The laws of physics cannot even cause anything to happen…To make this matter or the question clearer for you, if we replace the universe by the large jet engine and if we were asked by someone to explain it, shall we approach this by mentioning the persons agency of its inventor (designer). Or shall we follow atheism, dismissing this person (agency) and explaining the jet engine by saying, it arose by naturally physical law and I would say it would be just absurd and it is very obvious we need both levels of explanation in order to give complete description, and it is also obvious that the scientific explanation neither conflicts or competes with the agent/creator explanation, they compliment one another. It is same with explanations of the universe, God does not conflict or compete with the laws of physics as an explanation, God is actually the ground “base” of all explanation, in the sense that he is ultimate cause in the first place of a being the world for the laws of physics to describe…The laws of physics can/could explain how the jet engine works but not how it came to exist in the first place. Jet engine needed the intelligent and creative engineering work. The laws of physics could not actually produce the jet engine on there own; there also needed to be some material, subject to those laws that could be worked on it. And, now my dear readers this could be very humble stuff, but it is not produced by laws. And so now I will tell you this that the world of strict naturalism in which clever of mathematical laws all by themselves bring the universe and life into existences are pure science-fiction.
The laws of physics cannot even cause anything to happen…To make this matter or the question clearer for you, if we replace the universe by the large jet engine and if we were asked by someone to explain it, shall we approach this by mentioning the persons agency of its inventor (designer). Or shall we follow atheism, dismissing this person (agency) and explaining the jet engine by saying, it arose by naturally physical law and I would say it would be just absurd and it is very obvious we need both levels of explanation in order to give complete description, and it is also obvious that the scientific explanation neither conflicts or competes with the agent/creator explanation, they compliment one another. It is same with explanations of the universe, God does not conflict or compete with the laws of physics as an explanation, God is actually the ground “base” of all explanation, in the sense that he is ultimate cause in the first place of a being the world for the laws of physics to describe…The laws of physics can/could explain how the jet engine works but not how it came to exist in the first place. Jet engine needed the intelligent and creative engineering work. The laws of physics could not actually produce the jet engine on there own; there also needed to be some material, subject to those laws that could be worked on it. And, now my dear readers this could be very humble stuff, but it is not produced by laws. And so now I will tell you this that the world of strict naturalism in which clever of mathematical laws all by themselves bring the universe and life into existences are pure science-fiction.
by Shtal on 24 December 2012 - 07:12
Shtal.
by Felloffher on 24 December 2012 - 21:12
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The author leads us to believe prior to heaven (the universe?) and earth being created there was nothing, if this isn't the case why would God decieve him?
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
If it is dicovered that our universe isn't the only universe that exists or has existed and in fact the earth was formed with matter from another universe after the big bang, how could God claim to have created the earth if nothing existed before he made it?
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Before the stars were created the earh had light. How is this possible, was God using a flashlight?
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
I retract my flashlight statement, it must have been hydroponic lights.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
So here again God creates the sun and the moon after light already exists. Why doesn't God mention all the other planets and moons he created?
Obviously the only responce can be that God isn't bound by the laws of the universe. Why would he go so far out of his way to mislead us, he is truth and love right? I think a more plausable explaination is that the author wrote Genisis based on the crude understanding of the universe at that time. Science and Christianity are in no way compatible based on the accounts in Genisis. The vague description of the begining was an attempt by the author to allow some wiggle room in the event of future discoveries. Based on what we know today and the amount of interpretation that has taken place to explain what God must have meant or what he has done, Christianity IMO can not be taken seriously.
by Shtal on 25 December 2012 - 09:12
Let see if scientific evidence matches what the Bible says!
(I will provide to you, the complete description of six days creation)
What happened on the first day?
Scientifically the Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness he called “night” And there was evening and there was morning – the first day.
Couple things here, God created the universe, God created the earth and it was formless and empty, God creates light, and God separates light from darkness.
And so on the first day God created the material, God created the heaven and earth, and then he made light and he chose six days to do this and the day of rest to establish seven day week for us. It’s just six normal days just like we have today, there is no deferent’s at all… And Exodus 20:11 the only thing God ever wrote is with his own finger, he wrote on the rock for Moses, the Ten commandments, everything else he had someone write for him, he wrote on the rock with his own finger, he said he made everything in six days; to me that means he made everything in six days. And to finalize this: In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth - that is matter, energy, space and time. And there was evening, and there was morning – the first day.
Now what happens on day two?
“And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water”. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse “sky”. And there was evening, and there was morning – the second day.
On day two we had a firmament established, which is clearly later is spelled it out in Genesis 1:20 as being the place where the birds fly, Genesis 1:20 says the birds fly in firmament of heaven, so that is the atmosphere, it says there is water above this atmosphere, that is what is says very clearly, and there is also in psalm 148, verse 4 it says, that there are still waters above the heavens, I suspect God made three heavens, first heaven is the atmosphere where the birds fly, the second heaven is where the stars are, we called in out of space, sun, moon and stars and the third heaven is where God lives. Second Corinthians chapter 12, the apostle Paul tells being caught up to the third heaven, and apparently there was water barrier between each of those, the first one is probably now gone, that is felt down at / doing the flood. I don’t know if it was ice or water or moister or what. Btw there is still plenty water in the sky right now. (I think there was a somehow a canopy of water was suspended in the sky before the flood, I can’t proof this, it just canopy theory) And so all that water did came down: it rain 40 days and 40 nights.
The Bible is very clearly that most of the water for the flood came inside the earth when crust of the earth broke open; the fountains of the deep broke open that is very mass majority came from. And I think we still today have scars where this happened, called fault lines. I think the flood in the days of Noah happened when this water came out of inside the earth and canopy collapse, which is one of the explanations.
What happened in the day three?
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. And God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning – the third day.
We have the receding of the water of the oceans, seas and lakes taking place and we have the merges of land above the seas taking place, plans and trees come forth at that point.
What happened in the day four?
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights – the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the fourth day.”
And so: God made the sun; God made the stars on day four. “God hath made two great lights”.
There is no conflict between the Bible and Science, but there is a conflict between the Bible and the Big Bang, and there is a conflict between Bible and Evolution.
And what happened on day five?
Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
And what happened on day six?
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So it seems in these two days, we got: let the water team with living creatures, the birds fly above the earth, across the sky. He made great creatures in the sea, then livestock, creatures that move alone ground, animals and finally man.
Animals where all created on one literal day – the sixth day; and Adam and Eve they where both made on the sixth day. And then Bible says God finished his creation and rested on the seventh day.
BTW, in the tradition the consistency laws of physics, I believe God created everything in six days just like he said he did and he took his hands off and allows them to run down, and that is not changing laws of physics.
Fellofher wrote: Before the stars were created the earh had light. How is this possible, was God using a flashlight?
God is light and he doesn’t need any equipment to produce light as it is written in Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
(I will provide to you, the complete description of six days creation)
I use Genesis 1 (New King James Version) “It says heavens!”
http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/genesis/1.htmlWhat happened on the first day?
Scientifically the Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness he called “night” And there was evening and there was morning – the first day.
Couple things here, God created the universe, God created the earth and it was formless and empty, God creates light, and God separates light from darkness.
And so on the first day God created the material, God created the heaven and earth, and then he made light and he chose six days to do this and the day of rest to establish seven day week for us. It’s just six normal days just like we have today, there is no deferent’s at all… And Exodus 20:11 the only thing God ever wrote is with his own finger, he wrote on the rock for Moses, the Ten commandments, everything else he had someone write for him, he wrote on the rock with his own finger, he said he made everything in six days; to me that means he made everything in six days. And to finalize this: In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth - that is matter, energy, space and time. And there was evening, and there was morning – the first day.
Now what happens on day two?
“And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water”. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse “sky”. And there was evening, and there was morning – the second day.
On day two we had a firmament established, which is clearly later is spelled it out in Genesis 1:20 as being the place where the birds fly, Genesis 1:20 says the birds fly in firmament of heaven, so that is the atmosphere, it says there is water above this atmosphere, that is what is says very clearly, and there is also in psalm 148, verse 4 it says, that there are still waters above the heavens, I suspect God made three heavens, first heaven is the atmosphere where the birds fly, the second heaven is where the stars are, we called in out of space, sun, moon and stars and the third heaven is where God lives. Second Corinthians chapter 12, the apostle Paul tells being caught up to the third heaven, and apparently there was water barrier between each of those, the first one is probably now gone, that is felt down at / doing the flood. I don’t know if it was ice or water or moister or what. Btw there is still plenty water in the sky right now. (I think there was a somehow a canopy of water was suspended in the sky before the flood, I can’t proof this, it just canopy theory) And so all that water did came down: it rain 40 days and 40 nights.
The Bible is very clearly that most of the water for the flood came inside the earth when crust of the earth broke open; the fountains of the deep broke open that is very mass majority came from. And I think we still today have scars where this happened, called fault lines. I think the flood in the days of Noah happened when this water came out of inside the earth and canopy collapse, which is one of the explanations.
What happened in the day three?
And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. And God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning – the third day.
We have the receding of the water of the oceans, seas and lakes taking place and we have the merges of land above the seas taking place, plans and trees come forth at that point.
What happened in the day four?
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights – the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the fourth day.”
And so: God made the sun; God made the stars on day four. “God hath made two great lights”.
There is no conflict between the Bible and Science, but there is a conflict between the Bible and the Big Bang, and there is a conflict between Bible and Evolution.
And what happened on day five?
Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
And what happened on day six?
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So it seems in these two days, we got: let the water team with living creatures, the birds fly above the earth, across the sky. He made great creatures in the sea, then livestock, creatures that move alone ground, animals and finally man.
Animals where all created on one literal day – the sixth day; and Adam and Eve they where both made on the sixth day. And then Bible says God finished his creation and rested on the seventh day.
BTW, in the tradition the consistency laws of physics, I believe God created everything in six days just like he said he did and he took his hands off and allows them to run down, and that is not changing laws of physics.
Fellofher wrote: Before the stars were created the earh had light. How is this possible, was God using a flashlight?
God is light and he doesn’t need any equipment to produce light as it is written in Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
by Felloffher on 25 December 2012 - 19:12
Shtal,
"BTW, in the tradition the consistency laws of physics, I believe God created everything in six days just like he said he did and he took his hands off and allows them to run down, and that is not changing laws of physics."
This not only defies the law of physics, it contradicts everything we know about the universe after the big bang. God created the big bang everything was set in motion, he then paused the universe for six days to create the earth, the stars and all life. When he was finished he simply hit play, took a rest and all that is, just fell into place.
This is a perfect example of what I was referring to in my last post. Genesis is so vague in describing the beginning that the door has been left open for man to interpret what God must have meant. You think God would have gone in to a little more detail when professing his divine plan to Moses. Unless of course, the voice of God was a psychotic episode or an invention of Moses.
"The Bible is very clearly that most of the water for the flood came inside the earth when crust of the earth broke open; the fountains of the deep broke open that is very mass majority came from. And I think we still today have scars where this happened, called fault lines. I think the flood in the days of Noah happened when this water came out of inside the earth and canopy collapse, which is one of the explanations."
There is zero evidence that this event took place.
"BTW, in the tradition the consistency laws of physics, I believe God created everything in six days just like he said he did and he took his hands off and allows them to run down, and that is not changing laws of physics."
This not only defies the law of physics, it contradicts everything we know about the universe after the big bang. God created the big bang everything was set in motion, he then paused the universe for six days to create the earth, the stars and all life. When he was finished he simply hit play, took a rest and all that is, just fell into place.
This is a perfect example of what I was referring to in my last post. Genesis is so vague in describing the beginning that the door has been left open for man to interpret what God must have meant. You think God would have gone in to a little more detail when professing his divine plan to Moses. Unless of course, the voice of God was a psychotic episode or an invention of Moses.
"The Bible is very clearly that most of the water for the flood came inside the earth when crust of the earth broke open; the fountains of the deep broke open that is very mass majority came from. And I think we still today have scars where this happened, called fault lines. I think the flood in the days of Noah happened when this water came out of inside the earth and canopy collapse, which is one of the explanations."
There is zero evidence that this event took place.
by Shtal on 26 December 2012 - 00:12
What is the definition: Law of consistency in terms of time: (Tradition law of physics?)
Right from the beginning I think God created all things in six days and he took his hands off and allow them to run down, that is not changing the law of physics, it’s the same God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, he is not changed.
Except for when man’s fall was introducing entropy - had not being for Adam and Eve disobeying, I believe there would be no death in the world and everything would have persisted forever.
People misunderstand this subject: about laws of physics consistence through out God existence.
Answer: God is eternal, and I would not to try to put God into our laws, God is not subject to time, space and matter, he is above and beyond and outside all of those.
Felloffher: If you want to know specific definition is when the laws of physics have been consistence, let say “the laws of light” in terms property of speed.
And so how to interpret stable frame work:
When we can actually consider environment of physics to be stable?
As far as for man observation point – I think it’s been from the creation; you see Jesus can walk on the water if he wants or walked through the doors, I mean these are controversy to the laws of physics, but I think you are trying my dear Felloffher mixing apples and oranges - I think God is not subject to the laws of physics, he created them, he is not subject to time, this is not the December 2012 in Heaven, there is no time.
You see “I think” entropy came in - at the fall of man, “so far that is the best answer I have”, my guess the fall happened about 100 years after creation, so approx ~5,900 years.
You see God looked at everything at the end of chapter 1 in Genesis and said it was very good. Bible tells us very clearly in Exodus 20:11, I want you to rest on the seventh day because I made everything in six days, everything in heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is. If an average person cannot understand that verse then the Bible is incapable being understood.
Felloffeher wrote: There is zero evidence that this event took place.
Maybe we can talk about that later if you wish.
Shtal.
Right from the beginning I think God created all things in six days and he took his hands off and allow them to run down, that is not changing the law of physics, it’s the same God. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, he is not changed.
Except for when man’s fall was introducing entropy - had not being for Adam and Eve disobeying, I believe there would be no death in the world and everything would have persisted forever.
People misunderstand this subject: about laws of physics consistence through out God existence.
Answer: God is eternal, and I would not to try to put God into our laws, God is not subject to time, space and matter, he is above and beyond and outside all of those.
Felloffher: If you want to know specific definition is when the laws of physics have been consistence, let say “the laws of light” in terms property of speed.
And so how to interpret stable frame work:
When we can actually consider environment of physics to be stable?
As far as for man observation point – I think it’s been from the creation; you see Jesus can walk on the water if he wants or walked through the doors, I mean these are controversy to the laws of physics, but I think you are trying my dear Felloffher mixing apples and oranges - I think God is not subject to the laws of physics, he created them, he is not subject to time, this is not the December 2012 in Heaven, there is no time.
You see “I think” entropy came in - at the fall of man, “so far that is the best answer I have”, my guess the fall happened about 100 years after creation, so approx ~5,900 years.
You see God looked at everything at the end of chapter 1 in Genesis and said it was very good. Bible tells us very clearly in Exodus 20:11, I want you to rest on the seventh day because I made everything in six days, everything in heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is. If an average person cannot understand that verse then the Bible is incapable being understood.
Felloffeher wrote: There is zero evidence that this event took place.
Maybe we can talk about that later if you wish.
Shtal.
by Felloffher on 26 December 2012 - 01:12
Felloffher: If you want to know specific definition is when the laws of physics have been consistence, let say “the laws of light” in terms property of speed.
And so how to interpret stable frame work:
When we can actually consider environment of physics to be stable?
As far as for man observation point – I think it’s been from the creation; you see Jesus can walk on the water if he wants or walked through the doors, I mean these are controversy to the laws of physics, but I think you are trying my dear Felloffher mixing apples and oranges - I think God is not subject to the laws of physics, he created them, he is not subject to time, this is not the December 2012 in Heaven, there is no time.
Mixing apples & oranges? In one breath you use science to support your argument, in the next you speak of Jesus walking on water and God not being subject to laws of physics. If God isn't subject to our physical laws, why would he need to rest on the 7th day?
And so how to interpret stable frame work:
When we can actually consider environment of physics to be stable?
As far as for man observation point – I think it’s been from the creation; you see Jesus can walk on the water if he wants or walked through the doors, I mean these are controversy to the laws of physics, but I think you are trying my dear Felloffher mixing apples and oranges - I think God is not subject to the laws of physics, he created them, he is not subject to time, this is not the December 2012 in Heaven, there is no time.
Mixing apples & oranges? In one breath you use science to support your argument, in the next you speak of Jesus walking on water and God not being subject to laws of physics. If God isn't subject to our physical laws, why would he need to rest on the 7th day?
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