so how good were the old dogs? - Page 5

Gustav, you are correct. This is not a GSD issue, this is an issue of all of the former great dog breeds that could do protection work. Look at the Doberman, the Rottie, the Bouvier, etc.
Its the way society is today, 90% of them want a dog that looks good, that may resemble a GSD or whatever breed, but, they do not want to deal with the temperament of one.
That want and need is reflected in the way most so called breeders breed their dogs and what they produce. When the market is screaming "pet", that is what those who are interested in money will breed and produce.

"Unprovoked social aggression is usually fear based because of this, even if the dog appears confidant.  A truly confidant dog will not show inappropriate aggression."

This is not exactly true; research out-of-context or dominance aggression in dogs for more info.

Thanks, KG!

Keith you can find thousands of sources to disagree with any opinion or method... means nothing to me as my opinions are formed from what I feel fits MY real life experiences and what I have observed.

Plan to come down and train with us the second weekend in January, Deb.  A dog with exactly the issues we're discussing will be there, we can watch him work and then discuss what we've all seen.  What better way to decide whether or not a dog showing inappropriate aggression is inherently fearful?  You claim that confident dogs do not show inappropriate aggression and that that aggression is always based in fear.  My position is that confident dogs are opportunists and will show aggression at every opportunity, especially with a weak owner/handler.  Come down and train with us...bring your dogs...always good to get some work on them off of their home field...especially bring the pup; I 'd love to see her.  We'll see what's up with this dog and, after we've all seen what's up with him, will have a better understanding of who the dog is and what's going on with it and we can continue the discussion from there.

i would like to know what exactly is it you will be trying to see in the dog to make a conclusion - reading dogs is something i want to be able to do competently but find very difficult. the people that can generally are useless at explaining themselves, at least the ones i met, i want to understand my own and others dogs just to better at it. my dog lights up real quick so automatically people say nerve issues, fear blah, blah, blah. i have my doubts its that simple to explain cos the dog does not back up and if it was fear the dog would not chase to nail the guy, which he does. so i think agression is more dynamic than the dumb defence or prey, fear/fight etc. maybe it is all too complicated for any human too understand so we just make sh!t up.

Reading a dog is something that comes with time, vk4gsd, and watching dogs do what they do and listening to comments from people who know what they're seeing.  Some people have a natural ability to see what a dog is feeling but most gain that knowledge from years of observation.  Not sure how helpful that is...

Vk4,
the old dogs had dfferent standards to meet from what is used today, these standards are the key.
As for reading a dog or any animal for that matter takes time and experience no matter what else your told.
Some people aren't capable period.
There are no shortcuts, no crash courses.
Your right I think, some times people just make shit up, throw out a few new terms and poof, like magic.



Moons.

Lol

"My position is that confident dogs are opportunists and will show aggression at every opportunity, especially with a weak owner/handler."

I should have said some confident dogs here...depends on the dog.