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by AndyG on 18 March 2012 - 22:03
You know, since I posted on this thread, I received over 50 pm messages from people asking for more details of our experience and contacts of Dr Clemmons.
I feel it was a right decision to post here, because I could never think we might hit the exact spot. I posted simply thinking that people may need to know about our experience, that's it. However, the reaction, people should be given the right information to decide.
by beetree on 18 March 2012 - 23:03
Ridiculous.
by Abby Normal on 18 March 2012 - 23:03
AndyG
Your final sentence hits the spot. People should be given the RIGHT information to decide.
Tell us what Dr Clemmons says please. Ask him whether from the history of your dog he thinks he had DM. He always responds almost instantly to emails so you should have an answer tomorrow.
Here is his email address rclemm@ufl.edu
BTW what are you going to tell those '50' people if Dr Clemmons says it is unlikely your dog had DM?
Your final sentence hits the spot. People should be given the RIGHT information to decide.
Tell us what Dr Clemmons says please. Ask him whether from the history of your dog he thinks he had DM. He always responds almost instantly to emails so you should have an answer tomorrow.
Here is his email address rclemm@ufl.edu
BTW what are you going to tell those '50' people if Dr Clemmons says it is unlikely your dog had DM?
by beetree on 18 March 2012 - 23:03
Good luck to your chosen Andy. The outcome and trajectory remains the same.
by AndyG on 18 March 2012 - 23:03
Abby, if you had read my posts, you would have noticed that I already contacted Dr Clemmons in 2010 and spoke with him about Golo's caase. There is no point to give me his email address.
Definitely, I will keep everyone posted what Dr Clemmons thinks about our case two years later.
Definitely, I will keep everyone posted what Dr Clemmons thinks about our case two years later.
by 1doggie2 on 19 March 2012 - 00:03
I just went thru this, I would find it laughable that a dog in the throws of this could do the stairs.
Now, that that is said, this same dog was saved by a poster on this board years ago. I came on for help, she had a seizure and I was advised to get to the vet and have her checked for a calcium deficiency. Yep, that is what is was. Once on supplements, never had another one.
So, while I do not always agree with everything said here, when your dog is sick, this is a wonderful place to start looking for help, advise and for understanding what you are going thru.
So while I do not agree that your dog had dm, and would think more of a spine Injury, disk, plus incontinence is most common.
I would not discourage any one from trying to save, comfort, prolong their dogs life, or trying things I do not understand or have not yet tried myself.
For the poster that spoke of loss of dignity the dog felt (another thread), this was the hardest to watch.
by Nancy on 19 March 2012 - 00:03
I do think for anyone looking, Marjorie's pages are a wealth of information
This one in particular:
http://www.mzjf.com/test.html
Honestly, most dogs that make it to 12-13 years old that I see DO have deterioration in the back end with the front end becoming disproportianately stronger and even bulking up....I don't know if that also just goes along with aging and something we can prevent for dogs who don't have DM by proper supplementation and excercise.
As for me --- I won't be doing a myelogram but will do the EMG and drive to the veterinary school to do the MRI should symptoms worsen, because they have a machine that can do it all quickly as opposed to the more limited one locally.
And when Mr. Grim passes away (hopely not for several years-and listed as "carrier" per the genetic test), I have decided REGARDLESS that we will pay the $300-$400 to have a necropsy instead of the $200 to get back a box of ashes.. Since the only definitive diagnosis is a necropsy, I think any of us with dogs having spinal issues of unclear origin should consider making that contribution to DM research and forwarding the info on.
Andy, I *REALLY* think you are way misjudging these people because this is an emotional disease that we have to face with our eyes wide open and we have to really understand the tests and the medical insight behind the conclusions that were reached. You are the only person I have seen who has been defensive and insulting. I think everyone else cares about the dogs and not their egos here and wants to paint a realistic picture.
If you had two veterinary schools looking at the dog, I do not understand why an MRI which is not particularly invasive was not part of the testing as they would have the state of the art equipment to do one quickly and efficiently. I can understand not wanting to do the myelogram.
-----
Another possibility I have NOT seen mentioned is that DM causes wasting, weakness, and atrophy.....I imagine it is much more likely that a dog with DM could injure themselves in the course of stumbling and bumbling around......which could still explain a sudden collapse with some level of recovery....but obviously the overall condition would still be degenerative.
This one in particular:
http://www.mzjf.com/test.html
Honestly, most dogs that make it to 12-13 years old that I see DO have deterioration in the back end with the front end becoming disproportianately stronger and even bulking up....I don't know if that also just goes along with aging and something we can prevent for dogs who don't have DM by proper supplementation and excercise.
As for me --- I won't be doing a myelogram but will do the EMG and drive to the veterinary school to do the MRI should symptoms worsen, because they have a machine that can do it all quickly as opposed to the more limited one locally.
And when Mr. Grim passes away (hopely not for several years-and listed as "carrier" per the genetic test), I have decided REGARDLESS that we will pay the $300-$400 to have a necropsy instead of the $200 to get back a box of ashes.. Since the only definitive diagnosis is a necropsy, I think any of us with dogs having spinal issues of unclear origin should consider making that contribution to DM research and forwarding the info on.
Andy, I *REALLY* think you are way misjudging these people because this is an emotional disease that we have to face with our eyes wide open and we have to really understand the tests and the medical insight behind the conclusions that were reached. You are the only person I have seen who has been defensive and insulting. I think everyone else cares about the dogs and not their egos here and wants to paint a realistic picture.
If you had two veterinary schools looking at the dog, I do not understand why an MRI which is not particularly invasive was not part of the testing as they would have the state of the art equipment to do one quickly and efficiently. I can understand not wanting to do the myelogram.
-----
Another possibility I have NOT seen mentioned is that DM causes wasting, weakness, and atrophy.....I imagine it is much more likely that a dog with DM could injure themselves in the course of stumbling and bumbling around......which could still explain a sudden collapse with some level of recovery....but obviously the overall condition would still be degenerative.
by Abby Normal on 19 March 2012 - 06:03
His email address is different from the one he was using a few years ago. So I thought it might be helpful to give you his latest one. Maybe his old one is redirecting anyway.
by AndyG on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
Reposted ---
These are the symptoms before his "collapse" in Feb 2010.
A. Regular continuous signs (started approx. 3-4 years or so before Feb 2010)
1) Hind paws' dragging.
2) Toenails excessive wearing. The first thing the vet noticed in Feb 2010 were his toenails - completely worn.
3) Hind leg twisting during walks, all the time shaking and not stable. I cannot recall many times of hind legs crossing under the body, maybe a few times, but often when he turned around, his hind legs didn't follow front. It looks to me as he learned how to control his body and minimize hind legs' crossing.
4) Knuckling on the rear toes. Not all the time, but quite often yet lasted a few steps only.
5) Difficulties in jumping. We were explained all these regular signs by his ageing and common leg weakness of GSD.
B. Not regular signs, happened a few times.
6) He could not step on his hind leg during a walk. Usually it occurred suddenly - like he was stepping on some sharp stone or glass. When inspecting his feet we could not find any cuts, any injuries. It lasted from a few min to 10-15 min, then it was getting better. Gentle leg massages helped to get it fixed when happened. It happened not very often, maybe 6-7 times. We were thinking that his feet are supersensitive and he might have stepped on something.
7) Sudden half-seats during walks and hesitation to move forward. Again it lasted a short time.
From the beginning Golo never experienced any pain, neither along the spinal cord, nor in the legs.
This is what exactly happened in Feb 2010 (what I called a "collapse"). He was slow walking with my wife yet suddenly sat down and his left hind leg stopped working. Golo was sitting on his back and could not pull the leg back. My wife managed to stand him up and get back home on three legs.... she was moving his left leg step-by-step. I inspected his leg, it was completely lifeless, no reflexes at all. We lifted him into the car and drove to the vet. You know the rest of the story.
starrchar, you are right. I should be contacting Dr Clemmons. Last time I spoke with him two years ago. Though our system was based on Dr Clemmons protocols, it was different - different dosage and timing. Also, we gave him pills instead of solutions as recommended by Dr Clemmons. He just could not drink that stuff.
These are the symptoms before his "collapse" in Feb 2010.
A. Regular continuous signs (started approx. 3-4 years or so before Feb 2010)
1) Hind paws' dragging.
2) Toenails excessive wearing. The first thing the vet noticed in Feb 2010 were his toenails - completely worn.
3) Hind leg twisting during walks, all the time shaking and not stable. I cannot recall many times of hind legs crossing under the body, maybe a few times, but often when he turned around, his hind legs didn't follow front. It looks to me as he learned how to control his body and minimize hind legs' crossing.
4) Knuckling on the rear toes. Not all the time, but quite often yet lasted a few steps only.
5) Difficulties in jumping. We were explained all these regular signs by his ageing and common leg weakness of GSD.
B. Not regular signs, happened a few times.
6) He could not step on his hind leg during a walk. Usually it occurred suddenly - like he was stepping on some sharp stone or glass. When inspecting his feet we could not find any cuts, any injuries. It lasted from a few min to 10-15 min, then it was getting better. Gentle leg massages helped to get it fixed when happened. It happened not very often, maybe 6-7 times. We were thinking that his feet are supersensitive and he might have stepped on something.
7) Sudden half-seats during walks and hesitation to move forward. Again it lasted a short time.
From the beginning Golo never experienced any pain, neither along the spinal cord, nor in the legs.
This is what exactly happened in Feb 2010 (what I called a "collapse"). He was slow walking with my wife yet suddenly sat down and his left hind leg stopped working. Golo was sitting on his back and could not pull the leg back. My wife managed to stand him up and get back home on three legs.... she was moving his left leg step-by-step. I inspected his leg, it was completely lifeless, no reflexes at all. We lifted him into the car and drove to the vet. You know the rest of the story.
starrchar, you are right. I should be contacting Dr Clemmons. Last time I spoke with him two years ago. Though our system was based on Dr Clemmons protocols, it was different - different dosage and timing. Also, we gave him pills instead of solutions as recommended by Dr Clemmons. He just could not drink that stuff.
by Abby Normal on 19 March 2012 - 18:03
Is this the information you have given to Dr Clemmons to whether he thought it was DM? Any response yet?
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