Schutzhund "full calm hard bite" (no fight?) - Page 5

Interesting discussion, very good information, thanks to all participants.

Ibrahim

Tenmon,
In regards to your punch throwing analogy; I am well versed in the fundamentals of throwing a punch.  The fundamentals are the same whether some one has the right motivation or reason for throwing the punch or not.  Genetics and training are involved in this ability as well.  Also, sorry I have added nothing to this thread, I have no obligation or motivation to add things here. I do so as I see fit or feel inclined which has become less and less.  Hope that is ok with you?

I agree with Slamdunc that full calm grips show alot about the dogs true heart & temperament. A dog can have plenty of fight in them but still have calm full grips. Yes, many dogs in sport lack the fighting drive now a days but not all do.


This is my young female after only a few training sessions  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnroswKqu6w 
She was never taught to bite calm or full but always does. She'll happily bite a hidden sleeve / for real also.
Calm full bites but she is full of fight in her too. She is still young so you'll see some puppy in her still.
Ooo she just got done playing by our river in the back yard so is covered in mud.
 

Slam, in regards to another discussion we had recently....full, hard, crushing grips are genetic but can be enhanced or ruined by good or bad training. Now. How can you tell the difference between an adequate dog with good training and a born crusher? Because I do not want to breed my girls to any of the former. Sure they'd be fine in sport or work, but not for breeding. And in that way, to me a SchH title is not an adequate measure of a dog (or its full calm hard bite) UNLESS some people can tell the difference...and that someone isn't me. I know that my girls have it. I don't want to breed them to a male who doesn't, just because some guy is a good/popular trainer.

Does the full grip/bite has anything to do with the head strength, muzzle size, jaws strength, teeth etc? 

Ibrahim

Jackie, I will PM you.  Yes, you can tell by watching the dog work.


Does the full grip/bite has anything to do with the head strength, muzzle size, jaws strength, teeth etc? 

Ibrahim, a full grip has nothing to do with the head strength or muzzle size.  Now a dog with a larger head, bigger neck, bigger muzzle may have more jaw pressure if it uses it.  A big head does not guarantee a crushing bite.  I can show you a 55lb Malinois that is scary because it bites so full and hard, harder than many 80 or 90 lb dogs. 


Jim
 

As the OP of this thread it's not the "full calm hard bite" that I question but rather the lack of fight associated with it which seems to be more and more prevalent in top placing dogs in the sport of SchH.

I have read that this type of bite is genetic and comes from the herding days of the GSD. It seems that the "FCHB" was developed so that the GSD could dominate the sheep without breaking the skin or otherwise harming the sheep. This is contrary to most sheep dogs that "nip" at the sheep to force them into the direction so desired. If this is so then the GSD's bite is not necessarily all "prey" related.

SchH seems only mildly to test the dog's capability of holding that bite under pressure. I would like to see more fight required from the dogs while still in prey drive.

Koach,
If you decoyed you could see this fight drive and pressure put on a dog.  A good decoy will pressure a dog. 

I have caught and seen many dogs with full grips but little or no fight drive. I have seen dogs with three qtrs grips that were crushing, I have seen full grips that were crushing, and I have seen 3qtr grips that were weak and chewy. All depends on the dog.

Jackie, to answer jims question, if I may, put pressure on a dog. If it is genetic, it will always be there unless you have reached the dog's limit. A taught grip will revert back to garbage wit some pressure. KELLY, I love your ideas of a strong dog. The one video is awesome. You stated the dog.was fighting the man. The decoy stands there like a monk meditating. The dog thrashed around like any decent dog on a rag and his bark and hold was directed more at his handler than the decoy. I can go out and kick the shit out of an Amish guy all day long. If he doesn't really fight back, what's the point, and does that make me bad ass? Nope. Any malinois wit good prey will bite like like a pair of staple removers and thrash around. It's funny, but I train with a lot of malinois people and most of them are national level trainers, have won the awma nationals and world championships. Most of them will be the first to tell you they are nervy dogs.