Really confuse with Show line vs Work line - Page 5

 Ok, well I went to a talk by two SV judges at the weekend and it was quite interesting.  Obviously these are confirmed showline people and there was no one representing the working line point of view, but when someone asked about the division between the two lines, one of the judges said that now some breeders of top working line dogs are starting to pay more attention to structure and movement and more working line dogs owners are attempting to get a V qualification for their dogs.  However, the other judge said that most of the WL breeders are not at all interested in structure and (at least in Germany) the top dogs in Schutzhund sport are being bred to become harder and more dominant all the time.  He said the dogs that are winning in this sport in Germany are not balanced GSDs, they are very, hard, dominant and in some cases aggressive  dogs that can only be managed by expert trainers, and that this is not how the true GSD should be.  The GSD is a sociable, manageable, obedient dog, that is courageous and sure of itself but totally trainable, capable of working in diverse areas and also living as a family companion. Regarding the structure, he said that over the last 100 years we have been getting closer and closer to the ideal structure envisaged by Stephanitz, and he felt that in the next 100 years the appearance of the GSD will not change any where near as much as it has so far, as we are now so close to the ideal.  With two exceptions that need to be addressed now, one being ove-angulation and weak hocks (taken to the extreme in American Line dogs but also over exaggerated in German show lines over the last few years).  This affects the dogs´  working ability and so should be considered as a serious fault.  Also there as been a scientific study that shows that cases of torsion are more frequent in over-angulated dogs, probably because during movement the stomach does not remain level but flops downwards in the abdomen in these dogs.  According to the judge, the GSD should have a slightly sloping back (the withers should be higher than the croup) and they should have sufficient rear angulation to allow for a good push from behind but not too much so that the hocks are very unstable or so much slope that they look like hyaenas!.   And I noticed that in the show we had on Sunday over-angualted dogs were penalized more than ever before, I think they are serious about this, and I had already got this impression reading the judges reports of last year's sieger show. The other aspect that needs to be addressed according to these judges is size, there was a lot of discussion about this, not so relevant to the topic in question here.

This debate makes me giggle every time.  While GSD enthusiasts rail against one another over the correct angle of the forearm, the GSD as a true working dog in active working service is slowly being replaced by the Malinois.

The US Department of Defense uses only 100% Malinois now in their own military working dog breeding program.  I actually contacted one of the guys there and asked why the Malinois has trumped the GSD.  The answers are very practical:  "they live longer, can work longer, have fewer health problems." 

So go on and gaggle back and forth over "toplines"... the more that folks use the show ring and the SchH field as their prime criteria for breeding, the more the GSD loses ground as a serviceable breed.

It really tickled my funny bone to read about the GERMAN Special Forces paratrooper division that also replaced their GSD's with Mali's.  LOL  Kinda telling when the Germans choose not to use their "own" breed for their own military programs, when soldiers lives are on the line, and not just stud fees and points in a trial.

And no, I do NOT own a Malinois.  GSD 100%.  But I only dabble in SchH for fun.  If I had to risk my neck on a daily basis with a dog as a partner, I certainly would not be choosing a dog based on "correct side gait".   :D

Kudos to the GSD breeders who breed for power and performance not points and pigment, or else we'd have nothing left but "hobby" dogs to play games with on the fields. 

Great post SchHbabe.

He said the dogs that are winning in this sport in Germany are not balanced GSDs, they are very, hard, dominant and in some cases aggressive dogs that can only be managed by expert trainers, and that this is not how the true GSD should be. The GSD is a sociable, manageable, obedient dog, that is courageous and sure of itself but totally trainable, capable of working in diverse areas and also living as a family companion.

All I see in those words above is nothing more than scaremongering & instead lining their own pockets (judges and breeders of such) in gross market sales of nice looking and watered down version of a GSD. A true German Shepherd dog is not for everyone or anyone.

A true GSD requires proper training and leadership roles to be all that. A true GSD does not metamorphosis on its own.

SchBabe you are so right about the demise for the GSD breed as with comments made by Gustav, Prager and others. Let’s hope the fad will not be inflicted upon the malinois.

Louise,
Look at the coefficient of breeding on these three dogs, and look at the same data on the dogs in your showline dogs AFTER these dogs, (afterall these dogs are from the 60's and early seventies). If you don't see the difference, if you don't see the saturation on Canto/Quanto, if you don't realize what happens to continued backmassing on one or two dogs for many many generations......then I guess I was mistaken in bringing up these dogs because I felt that the really knowledgeable people understood the genetic difference in these dogs makeup and current showlines. The genetic saturation of current showlines has NOTHING to do with people's misguided views on how the current showlines lack working ability in general...RIGHT!!!!...... Even though that thinking makes a lot of people happy, (or not guilty), it still doesn't change the truth of the state of these lines.

Louise,
Look at the coefficient of breeding on these three dogs, and look at the same data on the dogs in your showline dogs AFTER these dogs, (afterall these dogs are from the 60's and early seventies). If you don't see the difference, if you don't see the saturation on Canto/Quanto, if you don't realize what happens to continued backmassing on one or two dogs for many many generations......then I guess I was mistaken in bringing up these dogs because I felt that the really knowledgeable people understood the genetic difference in these dogs makeup and current showlines. The genetic saturation of current showlines has NOTHING to do with people's misguided views on how the current showlines lack working ability in general...RIGHT!!!!...... Even though that thinking makes a lot of people happy, (or not guilty), it still doesn't change the truth of the state of these lines.

Sorry for the double post. As for the remarks from the two conformation judges......if these are the people who have put up the dogs with the hocks and angulation issues, not to mention color and temperament issues, why would I be impressed with their rationalization of the breed today. They are major contributors to continuing this downward spiral....They have to justify their actions don't they????/

 Well, at least they recognize that mistakes have been made and are trying to do something about it now, WL breeders have been far from perfect too, ignoring certain aspects and over-exaggerating others.  There was also a long discussion in the talk just about this predominance of the Canto/Quanto lines and the mistakes that have been made in letting certain lines become extinct by only promoting one or very few representatives of these lines (if these individuals happen to not produce well the line dies out).  This is another aspect they are now recognizing that has to be addressed, diversification.

In regards to oso's post:

"but when someone asked about the division between the two lines, one of the judges said that now some breeders of top working line dogs are starting to pay more attention to structure and movement and more working line dogs owners are attempting to get a V qualification for their dogs. However, the other judge said that most of the WL breeders are not at all interested in structure and (at least in Germany) the top dogs in Schutzhund sport are being bred to become harder and more dominant all the time. He said the dogs that are winning in this sport in Germany are not balanced GSDs, they are very, hard, dominant and in some cases aggressive dogs that can only be managed by expert trainers, and that this is not how the true GSD should be. The GSD is a sociable, manageable, obedient dog, that is courageous and sure of itself but totally trainable, capable of working in diverse areas and also living as a family companion."


Maybe some breeders have started to pay attention to structure and movement, but only to make their dogs more profitable. Look at Javir vom Talka Marda. That is a dog that could and should compete in conformation with the cream of the SL dogs. However, the color puts him at a perceptual disadvantage (sable is not a fault in the standard, but appears to be in the show judges mind) with the governing body. A "V" rating on a WL dog is a great tool for a breeder to differentiate himself from the rest of that market and create deamnd for his product. The toning down of the SL's downfall, over-angulation and hock issues, are not addressed so much by the judges, but by the constant protests of the non-competition buyers who want a dog that is sound.

By the same token, top flight competition dogs should have as much in common with the rest of their breed as Carl Lewis or Mike Tyson would have with any of us. Also, it shows that the breeding of DDR and Czech dogs who were bred for border patrol duty is starting to show in the breed in accordance to the 3 generation statement. Is this a fault? I don't think so, as long as the handler is up to the task. Would a pup from two of these dogs be advisable for most homesthat are not in the business of competition,? I don't think so. I believe that the GSD temperament should always have a substantial defense drive as well as suspicion, because it is a herding dog and by its nature it is vigilant and while defense drive is not always on the surface, it is always available to be tapped into.

I have friends who have malis and "dutchies" and while I like them, I doubt I'd have one. IMPO, Malis are just waaaay to active and easily agitated for my taste.  I'm certain that these qualities may be an advantage in some tactical environments, but not for me. These dogs are always ready for a challenge, may  be better suited for hotter climates and do not seem to get tired. However, I find the GSD to be more even tempered and less frantic in its execution of protection work and a safer bet from the standpoint of temperament.

This just plays into the difficulty of the ideal. It is much easier for the breeder to zero in on the few "traits-du-jour" that the market seeks at any given time and sell these dogs at premium prices than it is to breed a very balanced creature where excellence is attained in both the functional and the aesthetic. The problem with that is that it leaves the breed with an ever shallower gene pool. This "Videx" article is a brief treatment on the issue and shows that breeding for both work and aesthetics can be done.  Granted, it is hard to breed dogs like Bernd Lierberg, Seffe Busecker Schloss, Mutz Pelztierfarm, Frei Gugge, Nico Haus Beck, Mike Bungalow and Greif Lahntal, but recently, we've seen