Tracking Video Lessons with Ivan Balabanov - Page 5

Alpha, did you know that many major competitors used a forced retrieve, regardless of the dog's "innate behavior traits"?

yes chaz.. [ BTW i have not seen Ivans' DVD about the retrieve].   i have seen the forced retieve done quite often - very often . . Many that train dogs  believe it is the most reliable methodology compared to other methodologies. I can do a forced retrieve-  i was trained and tested to do it.  , BUT IMO i prefer to go my  mantra: " if the dog decides / chooses to retrieve , then it most certainly will .  Reagarding the forced retrive [ not a motivational retrieve]  in ghetto lingo : you can get anyone to do something if you put a gun to his head , but if you get some one to do something by touching& changing  his heart and mind . that behavior will be more manifestand and of free will .  you can change a dog in regards to MAKING  it do something[ BTW that is compliance not obedience]  . But you won't change the dog as far as it's feelings and attitude  about doing the work and / or it's owner. .. .  remember ,  i wrote in other posts :  dogs can harbour ill-feelings and resentment. i have seen many a dog work in my life with poor  attitude and resentment of the owner !!
 to be fair . ok consider a dog with those traits as mentioned.
                 Try a forced retrieve with a dog highly possessive ,independent , & very very low retreive triats , low motivation to work in unison [ pack drive]. consider those   innate genetic predispositions . One  may very well get a retrieve if you train well and or do a forced retreive or a motivational retrieve. It , can be done. But the performance won't be a flashy ,  pretty picture .  especially compared to a dog   with very high natural innate retrieve traits and the willingness to do the work . You will see the attitude difference and the relationship difference. . who do you think will end up on the winners paltform ?  which brings me to the comment , the way to the winners podium , begins the minute you select your dog. try to make a dog what it is not ! trey to get a dpog and work it if it lacks the motivation .. half your time will be in trying to motivate the dog even before you start your teaching .
  Also with the  dog as described above . Try doing a motivational retrieve . it will still take a lot of work ,energy to change that dog's outlook . AND if not done with extreme skill , that methedology will also result in poor performance , as it is more prone to at some point failng ! Both methodolgies have their merit and short comings !!
        now one feature . i know a lot of commentaries / threads are for doing sport workon the PDB  . no problem , but let's remember there a lot of people here that just want to train their dog and have fun . many of these dogs are different than competition dogs.  books &  videos perhaps can help .  but every dog and every person is different . and a video is just a start.  one has to get out there and do in order to truely learn .  now that is pure foolishness to think otherwise.  if i give some one golf video and say , go  do 18 holes - books , videos are a start , a glimpse  and they are not customed tailored to be applicable for every situation !!

Quote ~One  may very well get a retrieve if you train well and or do a forced retreive or a motivational retrieve. It , can be done. But the performance won't be a flashy ,  pretty picture .  especially compared to a dog   with very high natural innate retrieve traits and the willingness to do the work . You will see the attitude difference and the relationship difference. . who do you think will end up on the winners paltform ?


I disagree. I've seen plenty of "pretty picture, flashy retrieves" on dogs who were trained with the forced retrieve. The teams seemed to have a great relationship and the dogs had the utmost willingness to please in every exercise.
They were all most certainly on the "winner's platform", in fact were national winners.

shadylady , yes ..i acknowledge your post.  and as i stated the forced retireve's upside is that it is considered the most reliable by many . .  but in the totality of everybody that trains , considering factors such as experience and expetise  ,  a forced retireve if not done with excellence or precision can be devastating. that is the down side. again either way can be a benefit or a disaster . so do you takew thew high road or thje low road ? both can get you where you want to go . 
          Shadylady . let us also liken this to the   e-collar usage. another great topic on the PDB . yes i know of  top trainers in french ring[  in france  mind you the highest levels] . they use the e-collar , hardly operant conditioning , right ?  they are at the top . But similarily , the e collar used incorrectly can cause a myraid ofdevastating  problems , and some very hard to clean up too !! again a certain methodlogy has it's ups and downs ! it can be great , but not for the average person training, iwhout proper use . This  is why i say " there is' NO WAY' . you just have to know what you are doing , the how , the when , the where , and the why , as well as knowing the dog itself !! NO ONE WAY is perfect. All ways have merits and down sides.
           another commentary .. i like the operson that started the thread regarding a dog with no prey drive. great post for the PDB !!  OK ... how does one reconcile this to operant conditioning .?  my point here ; it is easy to train a dog with prey instincts that loves to bite ..[ i love dogs that want to take your head off , they are the easiest IMO to train ].  take a dog to the podium[ or just simply train for yourself] that has very little or no prey drive , especially with one specific   methodology . .. again possible , but not as easy ! rhetorically : how do you get a dog to bite , when it is not fun , when it is not a game ?? and on that note : how do you make obedience a game if it is not a game to that bent of a dog ? . .
           i am not looking for any answers . i want people to contemplate & think .i have seen many dogs like this . so if you own one of these temperaments .. then ?  my  point : everythoing is not in a book now , is it?

So .. i like to say .. i take nothing away from Ivan . I acknowledge his training and results. so this comment in NO WAY is a reflection to him , or has anything to with him or his videos . i am sure his a super trainer.
              but in regars to literature : i had a frind that gave me a CD , years ago . as i mentioned in 1970 was fluent in behaviorism /leanring theory / congnitive theory etc. I saw the DD and ssaid "great , they have something for people in the dog world now". it was about 'Positive Training" . now i knew better even at that time .. there is no such thing as 100% positive training . you musat do something when a child or a dog challenges . case in point.
           So i see my friend and he aksed what i thought . i said for new comers a good CD , a good start. then i got an awakening ! my friend told me he actually trained with that person  > i said Oh , good for you . My friend turned to me and stated , yes , positive training , but AP do you lnow how many times i saw the electronic collar used ? now IMO i don't advocate or not advocate the e-collar.  . everything is a tool . even your mouth /voice!!
              So much for the CD that advocated 'postive training ' now , they never in that CD  mentioned that they used the e-collar. Never  mentioned that all training must be balanced. Not everything as it seems to be . you just have to get out there and do /train your dogs !!
             well ..  you all  ..  think for yourselves ..take it from me ,  even i learn something everyday !!

You're a tool.

CR writes:  "You're a tool."

Did you mean that in a literal or figurative kind of way?

AP wrote:  "

yes i know of  top trainers in french ring[  in france  mind you the highest levels] . they use the e-collar , hardly operant conditioning , right ? "

Are you saying that the use of an e-collar is incompatable with operant conditioning?

I realize that my question will most likely provoke somesort of wordy discourse, but if at some point you could provide me with a "yes" or "no" answer to my question, I would be most appreciative.

Fig

stephanie .. your question has two ways of being looked at ... if you are asking can one use both operant conditioning as well as e-collar , that is can one use more than one technique training . then i say one does not have to be confined with just one manner of doing things in training .            
                if you ask can an e-collar be used instrumentally ?     then it depends on the application of the e collar  and the context. if one  understands  operant / instrumental  conditioning then you would know stepanie  that is not a yes or no question ! not being sassy steph .   If one is  interested , there are   studies in literature that enable you to find out why i state what i do &  why that is not a yes /no question .  you would discover how a current could be used as a reinforcer as opposed to an aversive stimulus. may appear confusing and not possible , but it is possible.
         chaz .. your so right .  don't worry about me chaz , who or what i am ..you won't have to waste your time reading or replying to my posts .  i leave this forum . isn't that great ? you  have more room to pontificate .