New Behavior - Page 5

Uber,
When shown around people, raised hackles are a sign of insecurity.  That is why I do not like dogs that raise their hackles around people.  In animals it is used to increase their size to show dominance or in relation to a threat.  Really confident dogs generally do not raise their hackles around other dogs as they do not consider other dogs a threat.

Running and playing is different and can just show excitement.

 Um...Phil........I was talking about my Siberian Huskies, how the hackles raise when playing together, but have never gone up when doing OB or being around any person or dog no matter what the person/dog was doing.  ..........If my Huskies are doing Schutzhund and doing bitework with a helper, well, then that within itself would be a miracle.

 Good morning, all. Just as I suspected, no one really got what I was saying at all. In fact, 9/10 of my explanation of what I meant by them not feeling "fear" was totally missed, thus the point was futile and of course the rest of it didn't make sense. 

I believe there is a difference between fear and survival. Self-preservation and survival are natural and necessary instincts. The word "fear" is used way too much and to the point where any and all "fear" is considered negative and the dog displaying it is "weak." I especially love how people can't talk about dog behaviors in any parameter beyond what a judge would think or what it means on a field. How about in real life? Wild? Other scenarios not being scored? Do you all know that there are situations that occur in life that don't pertain to SchH? Just checking.

Let's try and step off the big green field in our heads for a few moments and remember that a dog is reacting how its instincts and later, training, are telling him/her to act. A dog can only anticipate something like punishment once it's already occurred. Sure, a dog can reason and do problem-solving,(and to imply that I of all people am underestimating the dog is preposterous and further proof that everything I said was misinterpreted) but my point was that deeming hackles raised (which is normal dog behavior- maybe you don't like it, maybe a judge won't like it, but it is NORMAL) automatically means a dog is weak and "fearful" is ridiculous. Those of you reading this who handle dogs somewhere besides a sport field will understand this. Just because something isn't desirable in a certain sport does not mean it is not normal behavior and can't be worked through. Jim is the only one who seems to differentiate between behavior toward dogs and behavior toward people in a logical form. Perhaps this is because Jim handles dogs off a training field. 

What I said was instead twisted into "dogs can't learn" (abuse, punishment example given).  UM, NO. Not at all what I was saying about them not feeling 'fear' and living in the moment and reacting based on so many different factors in any given situation. Fear of punishment is a learned behavior. They are not born with that; it is not instinctive. This is fear; I agree. They have learned to be fearful because of past situations- they are anticipating something bad- perfect example of true fear. Raising hackles at another dog while trying to overpower it is not the same. Raising hackles in excitement is not the same. I just think the terminology is misused and due to that, implications are made about a dog's character that may not be true. 

I have said all this hundreds of times in different ways over the years and while a lot of people do "get it," most don't seem able to open their minds enough to look at the dog in a different light. Give MORE credit instead of less, try to work through an issue w/a dog and see if you can't emerge a stronger team instead of labeling the dog insufficient or somehow faulty because it displays normal behaviors that you deem unacceptable based on the human terms you define them in.

I'm not expecting to have added much clarity here, but I'm done anyway. This thread will probably be gone in 20 minutes anyway. 

Jenni what you said was:  "I don't believe dogs feel fear whatsoever, if you want to get picky."

The rest of us disagreed with that statement, we flat out said fear is a necessary part of survival of the species.  I don't think one of us thought only in the limited direction of fear and how it applies to "the field". 

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is.  We are entitled to our opinions  too, such as it is.  Please understand it is not a question of us not  "getting it", we "get it" we just don't agree with you, that's all.   

Some people said hackles raised is a bad thing, some said it wasn't.  I think we have to always leave room for the possibility that just because someone's opinion is different from our own does not mean they are wrong.  Let's try to remember that people can differ, and sometimes those who differ with us have just as much, if not more experience and knowledge than we may have, but they have a different point of view.

Well said, Sue. I think people get their panties in a bunch when people say the word fear. Without that fear, we would have golden retrievers willing to run up and kiss the helper. It's how much courage the dog has to overcome that fear, otherwise, we would have labs. All bark and no bite. Sure, hackles are natural. I didn't hear anyone arguing that. And they are not the whole picture. Ear and tail set, etc. I just don't get why people become so upset in these discussions. They get their hackles up and snarl.

What's nice in my eyes is that the OPs initial thread was about an observation on her pup at a certain moment. And then this thread grows into a larger broader arena of instincts, characteristics, learned traits etc; etc. That is what I like, a topic and then it branches out and individuals talk about their opinions, beliefs and experiences to back it up. We might not all agree with everyone, with every word. But as long as we are civil toward each other, and yes at times we are passionate about what we know or believe, but it is passion. We all have different experiences, diffferent dogs, different training, different ideas. And in reality different jobs and sometimes our lives depend on that dog and others' lives also. In my opinion and I would think slamdunc, Kim/Pirates' Lair, (my opinion) we look at our dogs as tools, tools that are included with other tools at our disposal and the mindset is different about the dog. We started with hackels then over to FEAR, then reasons, opinions, learned behaviors etc., etc. And I for one like that. As K9 handlers. depending on the job. the dog in my eyes doesn't know fear. We talk about the size of the dog........ the size of the fight in the dog.  And yes I think some missuse or misinterpret the word or the action. But that can happen in any aspect in life. I would see in trainig where a dog would be after the decoy and the dog would say miis the decoy and land wrong and for the moment hurt, the handler would overeact and remove the dog from the training. If the K9 is taking on a 300 lb. perp and this perp is punching the dog, kicking and literally beating the dog do you think the dog is feeling fear? Literally, the word FEAR. NO. Reiker, in my eyes was taught to take on a grzzly bear and win, and in his eyes he would. If he was hurt he can't stop In reality we will never know. Another example. You're after a subject who's in a building/room and our K9 is going to enter through a window. You as the handler know the subject is on the other side. K9 knows. He will enter not knowing what's there, how far down the drop is, what type of resistance he will meet? Is there FEAR?  NO. Jen was right when talking aout "off the green" or "off the field". I've never been in the trial aspect of the GSDs. Worked too much but one day would love to. Always worked with them as partners.      

Alboe2010, you are talking about a k9 that has been trained to be thrown through a window to go apprehend the guy. How many times in training does the dog lose? You build a dogs confidence through training and these aren't insecure dogs to begin with.

Donny boy,

I like you, (what little I know of you), always get a laugh out of some of the things you say! All I was saying/showing was how different interpretations individuals were having on a observation or one's reference on an observation. If all of the commenters were seeing it with their eyes we might have a different thread or responses. Then on the word FEAR or what some were considering a fear characteristic/example. And some were generalizing "dogs". Were they talking of their dogs? All dogs? Dogs that they have seen do what they were talking about? A trained dog? An untrained dog? A pup? And adult? A dog with dog? A dog with human? That's all I was talking about.Then a police K9, explosive detection, and some of the others. I can't comment too much on the field dogs and the trials. One day hopefully. Only the MWDs, LE K9s, and some explosive detection K9s along with civilian contractors K9s.

Like I said, I like you and hear what you say. I'm not much of a jokester more of a worker. So,  I'll try a response:  We never throw our K9s through windows? We assist them. 

Funny! I hear ya!