Culling - Page 5

Jenn, 6 of 7 had mega-e, the owner of the stud dog took the survivor. Never bred the female again. Never heard from the sire (AKC Champion) again, but not sure what happened there.

Best,
Rik

"genetic diseases/ temperamental issues found that are directly caused by blue, liver, and white dilution/masking allele in german shepherds. So far every thing i've seen excludes german shepherds from color related issues"

I think and someone with brains will correct me if am wrong. That the only reason certain colours have been connected to genetic diseases/ temperamental issues is because alot (not all) who breed for a specific colour risks inbreeding and some may neglect certain health checks when it comes to breeding.

 Thanks, Rik. 

Geordie, yes and no. Is that clear enough for you? LOL

I am not aware of any research studies on GSD's that would relate coat color to genetic faults but I have't done any research on it either. That said, I am totally against "cosmetic culling".  I'm pretty confident saying that the vast majority of dogs end up in pet homes and are never shown in anything. There will always be a demand for good quality dogs even if they are less than breed worthy.

Geordie,
There are a lot of problems caused and perpetuated by breeding for only one thing like color. But, some color related genetic problems can be caused by genetic mutation. Mutations happen all the time, look at the Panda shepherd for a recent example.

A very good example of genetic mutation is the "white" Doberman. This is also a pretty good example of how "breeding for color alone" caused a whole lot more problems. In 1976, a cream colored female pup was born from a mating between two black and tan dogs. Rasputin VI and Dynamo Humm. All the littermates were black and tan. Five years of genetic research has proven the dog had a genetic mutation causing albinism or partial albinism. It was also proven that albinism is not related to the dilute genes of fawn (Isabella) and blue. This cream/white bitch was bred to a dominant black and tan dog and the resulting litter of 14 pups were all black and tan but the genetic mutation was passed on in the offspring. In spite of the health problems directly associated with albinism, (photophobia, underdeveloped retinas, increased susceptability to skin cancer) the "new" color was wildly sought after and the decendants heavily inbred. The massive inbreeding has had a very detrimental effect on these dogs.  Very poor temperaments, missing teeth, etc. All AKC registered descendants of the original parents Rasputin VI and Dynamo Humm are designated with the letter Z in their registration numbers. The "Z list" is maintained to track dogs with the known mutation so breeders can avoid using those dogs in their program.

On a side note for color related things, it's prety well know in the Doberman community that black and red (brown) dogs carry the heaviest coats. Blue and fawn (Isabella) which are the dilute variants of black and red carry lighter coats and are much more prone to skin and coat problems.

The poor blue dogs rarely have a good coat. I had a beloved blue, well bred, nice bitch, and she had Blue Dobe Alopicia (sp?) and all her hair fell out and she was left with just tan hair on her markings. This at 1.5 years of age. She ran a fever and had pustules all over her. It broke my heart.  As much as I love the blue color, I would never have another (I did have a 10 year old rescue in for a while which was blue and had a pretty good coat, so it can happen). 

Culling is an important part of breeding. Earlier I was called a "puppy murder" on this board by some jackasses who can't deal with the reality of responsible breeding.  It is a SAD and HORRIBLE part of being a breed steward.  The reward is knowing that you are helping your breed stay strong and sound, and making sure those getting your dogs will not experience a horrible situation.  Shit happens, but you can do your best to make sure it doesn't.   

Blues always seem to have the most skin problems and allergies.  LOL puppy muderer.  Diane, you have great knowledge of what it takes to love your breed and protect its integrity.

RE: Mobjack, I agree and I really respect the Dalmatian Club of America's position, and that they put it out there.  You are responsible for what you produce.  Their position is that any deaf pups should be culled, humanely euthanized by a vet.  http://www.thedca.org/deaf1.html The Dalmatian Rescue has mostly deaf dogs, but the DCA recommends they euth them, also speaks to vets saying not to suggest a "special" home may be found, because there's already tons of unwanted animals.  I think it's an even higher percentage, and in other white dogs as well.  Can't tell my just clapping your hands, have to do the BEAR testing.

There are breeders who cull on color alone.  Great Dane breeders, culling undesired colors besides Harlequins, Ridgeback breeders, culling perfectly healthy pups born without the ridge of hair.  My opinion is- it's their puppies, they have their own goals in their own breeding programs, their choice.

I am not aware of any research studies on GSD's that would relate coat color to genetic faults

In a sense, there can be genetic associations to something that is selected "for", which becomes accompanied by something undesireable. I don't know much about livers and blues, but there's a strong correlation with certain hereditary issues, as Doberdoodle suggests.

DNA recombination is NOT a process that works at each individual loci, one loci at a time.  Chromosomes are typically parted at particular "usual" loci on the strand, before they are recombined, so that sequences of instructions are grouped together in various segmented lengths, some from one parent, some from the other become rejoined in the recombination process. That's what is mean by "genetically linked", and that's how a color or some other trait can be associated with some other trait that's seemingly irrelevant to it.

The mutation might not yet be at "full saturation" within a population or breed.  There may be portions of a population that don't necessarily carry a deleterious mutation that is commonly accompanied with the selected trait (i.e., white in GSD's?).  Or, perhaps an entire population carries the mutation when that trait is selected for (i.e., merle in Aussies?). If the trouble free linked characteristics are selected more frequently, then there can be a lessening saturation of the issues commonly associated with them. The "genetically linked" troublemakers can be purged from the registries for breeding. I think that's something the white coat breeders have been careful of, for example.

Daryl,
your grasp of genetics FAR outstrips my own and I'm glad you jumped in here to explain some of it.

I think the advances being made with gene mapping and elsewhere in the field will continue to help improve breeding immensely. Knowing the "source" of certain genetic mutations and tracking offspring like what's been done with the white doberman has kept that mutation from running rampant through the breed. Testing for "carriers" of certain genes has been a godsend for some breeds. "Lethal white" syndrome in horses for example.

In the old days before all this fancy science, what choice did breeders really have except to cull every possible suspect?

"Under new legislation recently approved by the Environment Secretary Caroline Spelman, farmers are to be given the power to cull badgers in the areas worst hit by Bovine TB in south and south-west England.

Whilst the precise details of the scheme will be put to public consultation later this month, it seems apparent that a policy of widespread culling is to be enacted in the near future. The scheme will grant farmers the power to kill and vaccinate badgers, both on their land and within a fifty-mile radius, to try and combat the spread of Bovine TB" - http://www.countrylife.co.uk/news/article/500024/Badger-culling-to-be-legalised.html

I know it has it uses when it comes to wildlife and i understand all views that have been stated on this post.

So let me get this right.... Peta humanly kills (cull) alot of animals which are given to them and that is wrong 'cause they personally think the animals which belong to them are better off dead than being in the hands of people. Yes thats wrong in my eyes too but as some people have stated a "owner" (or in this case an organisation) must take responsability for the animals in their care. If that means culling then that is their buisness? Am i correct.

So a breeder can cull a Liver gsd puppy 'cause it is not good for the gsd breed but it is a puppy which could be homed in a great home? But peta cant cull alot of animals that would be great pets cause they have their own views on what is best and what isnt?

I dont agree with alot of peta's views but how can you accept the culling of a healthy puppy but shout and scream at the culling of a healthy adult dog just cause it is culled by a organisation you dont like?

Btw i do not and will never agree with culling and murder of innocent animals but i do accept people have the right to do what they see fit by their own animals.