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by DuvalGSD on 30 March 2010 - 19:03
WE need to keep the E collar
by poseidon on 31 March 2010 - 02:03
I enjoyed reading the invigorating discussion from both yoshy and Hans. Thanks for that even though it was slightly off-topic to the OP. It deserves a dicussion on its own.
As per banning the use of e-collar by legislation as a form of a training tool, this is typically a kneejerk reaction responding to public pressure without its true justification. I have no practical knowledge of how to use it however I believe the e-collar has its own merits as a training tool. It seems to me that legislations has been passed due to some media hype of its misused by a number of individuals, just like the banning certain breed of dogs.
IMO, a much more practical solution should have been some sort of regulation for its appropriate uses and perhaps licensing for certain breeds. If control is what they are after by all means do so intelligently. Not government acting like puppets!
As per banning the use of e-collar by legislation as a form of a training tool, this is typically a kneejerk reaction responding to public pressure without its true justification. I have no practical knowledge of how to use it however I believe the e-collar has its own merits as a training tool. It seems to me that legislations has been passed due to some media hype of its misused by a number of individuals, just like the banning certain breed of dogs.
IMO, a much more practical solution should have been some sort of regulation for its appropriate uses and perhaps licensing for certain breeds. If control is what they are after by all means do so intelligently. Not government acting like puppets!
by Prager on 31 March 2010 - 15:03
I am sorry that I have hijacked the thread. I thought that it is interesting to see how the discussion is meandering around the topic.You may say I am against the ban of e collars and then where do you go? I am against the ban of e collars and thought it to be important enough to keep it on the top of topics thus I added my idea on training. Anybody can and does swings the topic where ever he/she wants. If you want to go back to the original issue and say something worth while then I thing you should do it. By the way on the end of this post you will see that I did not deviate from the topic after all.
Yoshi.
Yes this is a strictly a discussion and absolutely there should nothing be misconstrued as anything personal or as a dislike of the person who is using device or methods I do not agree with.
Doesnt he receive enough signals from us to know when we are displeased with him throughout his everyday life. We also help the dog succeed through the learning phase with our hands,training collar,withholding reward etc... which is compulsion. or when teaching the down you are putting pressure on his training collar in a way to show him what you want and allow him to make the choice to down while pressuring him with stimulus from the ecollar to make the choice. So basically what I am getting at hear is your presence, hands on through learning phase and non-tolerance of refusal in proofing phase should be sufficient for you and your dog to acquire a working relationship from the negative aspect. As well as obviously cultivating the way for the praise and happy side of your relationship through the training evolution. In turn would equal a nice working relationship correct?
I guess that is my point. I do not believe so. First the training is not just to teach the dog a command. As matter of fact in every day life I believe that is a secondary issue in relationship with the dog. If the relationship is properly build through proper direct training the commands are going to be there. The 1 reason to train a dog, (since dogs are pack oriented animals and they have to have leader or they will turn into one) is to establish leadership position and communication of positive + and negative -. I want the dog to understand that the +- are both coming 100% from me or my student trainer. That is only fair to the dog and also enables the dog to understand who I am and subsequently to control the dog without any indirect (or direct) device in emergency and critical situations.
Indirect device (e collar) and direct device (leash, chocker,....) differ in the way dog sees us. Also since the collar is indirect device that often leads to more improper use and often to downright abuse which then leads dogoders to try to ban these devices. I guess I am back on topic now:)).
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Yoshi.
Yes this is a strictly a discussion and absolutely there should nothing be misconstrued as anything personal or as a dislike of the person who is using device or methods I do not agree with.
Doesnt he receive enough signals from us to know when we are displeased with him throughout his everyday life. We also help the dog succeed through the learning phase with our hands,training collar,withholding reward etc... which is compulsion. or when teaching the down you are putting pressure on his training collar in a way to show him what you want and allow him to make the choice to down while pressuring him with stimulus from the ecollar to make the choice. So basically what I am getting at hear is your presence, hands on through learning phase and non-tolerance of refusal in proofing phase should be sufficient for you and your dog to acquire a working relationship from the negative aspect. As well as obviously cultivating the way for the praise and happy side of your relationship through the training evolution. In turn would equal a nice working relationship correct?
I guess that is my point. I do not believe so. First the training is not just to teach the dog a command. As matter of fact in every day life I believe that is a secondary issue in relationship with the dog. If the relationship is properly build through proper direct training the commands are going to be there. The 1 reason to train a dog, (since dogs are pack oriented animals and they have to have leader or they will turn into one) is to establish leadership position and communication of positive + and negative -. I want the dog to understand that the +- are both coming 100% from me or my student trainer. That is only fair to the dog and also enables the dog to understand who I am and subsequently to control the dog without any indirect (or direct) device in emergency and critical situations.
Indirect device (e collar) and direct device (leash, chocker,....) differ in the way dog sees us. Also since the collar is indirect device that often leads to more improper use and often to downright abuse which then leads dogoders to try to ban these devices. I guess I am back on topic now:)).
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by LAVK-9 on 31 March 2010 - 20:03
Hans....are ecollars banned in Czech Rep? Do they train with the prong or choke?
It's not bad that it got off track a bit...good explanations came from it.I am with you Hans on the theory of using a prong or choke.I was taught but people that were taught from a German that trained dogs in WW1&2. They didn't have ecollars back then and they did quite well without them.They had to build a relationship with the dogs as the dogs protected them and were messengers warandgame.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/war-dogs-wwii/ Where it talks about Willy Necker..that is who my bosses at the dog training facility were trained by. I was trained directly by them and had the privilege of meeting Mr Necker before he passed away. He had some amazing stories.
It's not bad that it got off track a bit...good explanations came from it.I am with you Hans on the theory of using a prong or choke.I was taught but people that were taught from a German that trained dogs in WW1&2. They didn't have ecollars back then and they did quite well without them.They had to build a relationship with the dogs as the dogs protected them and were messengers warandgame.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/war-dogs-wwii/ Where it talks about Willy Necker..that is who my bosses at the dog training facility were trained by. I was trained directly by them and had the privilege of meeting Mr Necker before he passed away. He had some amazing stories.
by yoshy on 31 March 2010 - 21:03
HAHA Prager nice way to circle it back onto topic.In the interest of the thread we can chat about the applications on the side sometime.
by NoCurs on 01 April 2010 - 04:04
A very, very wise man (and internationally respected breeder of champion pointer hunting dogs) once said "if you have to force a dog to do something it was supposedly bred to do, then it isn't bred very well, is it?"
Truer words were never spoken.
I know a man who has won the Canadian and US springer hunting nationals with his dogs; none of which have ever had a shock collar on. He says "why would I have to shock a springer that is bred to hunt and be biddable?"
I myself have trained multiple dogs to SchH III, titled in French Ring and other sports and use positive methods ONLY. My dogs are correctly bred. More so than that I am a "good trainer". : )
Over the past 35 years I have seen maybe 2 people who used a shock collar correctly, and then for the use it was developed for: stopping dangerous behavior such as chasing stock or cars or "off" game. I have seen a ton of people use it as a crutch because they just weren't very good dog trainers without it.
A well bred GSD wants to work. Wants to please its owner. Is bred to bite, but more importantly to release when required. A "working" dog that is not compliant to the handler is as poorly bred as one which is too soft.
There is a lot of emotion about this issue and I see it as defensiveness from those who use electric shock on their dogs and anger from those who don't. I can honestly say it angers me to see the people I see using shock, because it is almost without exception not necessary, or would not have been necessary had the dog been raised correctly - or bred correctly.
Just my opinion.
Truer words were never spoken.
I know a man who has won the Canadian and US springer hunting nationals with his dogs; none of which have ever had a shock collar on. He says "why would I have to shock a springer that is bred to hunt and be biddable?"
I myself have trained multiple dogs to SchH III, titled in French Ring and other sports and use positive methods ONLY. My dogs are correctly bred. More so than that I am a "good trainer". : )
Over the past 35 years I have seen maybe 2 people who used a shock collar correctly, and then for the use it was developed for: stopping dangerous behavior such as chasing stock or cars or "off" game. I have seen a ton of people use it as a crutch because they just weren't very good dog trainers without it.
A well bred GSD wants to work. Wants to please its owner. Is bred to bite, but more importantly to release when required. A "working" dog that is not compliant to the handler is as poorly bred as one which is too soft.
There is a lot of emotion about this issue and I see it as defensiveness from those who use electric shock on their dogs and anger from those who don't. I can honestly say it angers me to see the people I see using shock, because it is almost without exception not necessary, or would not have been necessary had the dog been raised correctly - or bred correctly.
Just my opinion.
by Slamdunc on 01 April 2010 - 15:04
Nocurs,
I know a man who has won the Canadian and US springer hunting nationals with his dogs; none of which have ever had a shock collar on. He says "why would I have to shock a springer that is bred to hunt and be biddable?"
What year was that? Was it in the last 10 years? I'm just curious. I don't know of any top bird dog trainers that do not use e collars. The competitions have gotten so intense and style is so important with the judging that the trainers have gone to using clickers and ecollars. When a $50, 000 cash prize in on the line for one competition you use the best tools out there. A top bird dog guy told me recently that in a National competition his dog and the next guys dog were both excellently bred, high end dogs the only difference is the training. Both dogs are excellent it boils down to the training.
Every National level and WUSV SchH competitor I have met has used an e collar at some point. In todays competions the judging is so strict and the competition is so tight there is little margin for error. Go and look at Blacky von Neuen land's obedience, a top dog in Ob back in the late 90's. This obedience is excellent, but I'm not sure it would score as high in todays BSP competitions. I have avoided this topic as I have given my views on e collars here in the past. Those that compete at a National level use every tool available and hopefully use them correctly.
by yoshy on 01 April 2010 - 20:04
What is this bird dog trainers name?
by Slamdunc on 01 April 2010 - 21:04
Yoshy,
If you are asking me, I was referring to George Hickcox. I went to one of his seminars last fall. It was very interesting and I learned a lot on how the bird dog guys use ecollars. I definitely picked up a few new techniques and learned a lot from him regarding dog training and I have nothing to do with bird dogs. But, I'll go anywhere and keep an open mind if I can learn something and adapt it to my needs.
Jim
If you are asking me, I was referring to George Hickcox. I went to one of his seminars last fall. It was very interesting and I learned a lot on how the bird dog guys use ecollars. I definitely picked up a few new techniques and learned a lot from him regarding dog training and I have nothing to do with bird dogs. But, I'll go anywhere and keep an open mind if I can learn something and adapt it to my needs.
Jim
by yoshy on 01 April 2010 - 21:04
No not you jim haha.
I was asking NoCurs about this all positive trainer whom is in the nationals with his field dogs.
You know I am out with the field retriever guys a couple times a week- throwing bumpers, shooting ducks and learning about their training. Its a lot of fun!!! I think its fascinating what they are capable of and respect working dogs of any discipline. I find the filed dog training very addictive. I dont know of any whom do not use ecollars as well.
PS
Just started working an incentivised force fetch on yoshy beginning of the week. backed with an ecollar. he is taking to it like a champ.
I was asking NoCurs about this all positive trainer whom is in the nationals with his field dogs.
You know I am out with the field retriever guys a couple times a week- throwing bumpers, shooting ducks and learning about their training. Its a lot of fun!!! I think its fascinating what they are capable of and respect working dogs of any discipline. I find the filed dog training very addictive. I dont know of any whom do not use ecollars as well.
PS
Just started working an incentivised force fetch on yoshy beginning of the week. backed with an ecollar. he is taking to it like a champ.
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