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by Slamdunc on 18 December 2009 - 15:12
Hey Adi,
I know exactly what you mean when the dog misses the ball and gets your hand or arm. Hurts like crazy, exactly like a dropped hammer...I have gone to longer strings and moving faster to avoid getting bit, but it happens. I was decoying for our K9's with out equipment and was very close to the dog. I kinda jabbed at the dog's face, trying to make contact with it's ear. I just wanted to brush it's ear and let it know I was close. I used to kick box and have pretty fast hands, guess that was a long time a go. I shot my hand in close to the dog's face and bam he nailed my finger "degloving" 1/2 of my index finger. That hurt for weeks and is just now about healed.
So, in a nutshell, if a real powerful, serious dog goes fora "live" bite and means business, one would either have to be: really, really fucking tough with high tolerance for pain - some people are like that, mentally challenged, have some really weird thrill issues or high on drugs to even think of engaging the dog and asking for more.
Very true!
Jim
I know exactly what you mean when the dog misses the ball and gets your hand or arm. Hurts like crazy, exactly like a dropped hammer...I have gone to longer strings and moving faster to avoid getting bit, but it happens. I was decoying for our K9's with out equipment and was very close to the dog. I kinda jabbed at the dog's face, trying to make contact with it's ear. I just wanted to brush it's ear and let it know I was close. I used to kick box and have pretty fast hands, guess that was a long time a go. I shot my hand in close to the dog's face and bam he nailed my finger "degloving" 1/2 of my index finger. That hurt for weeks and is just now about healed.
So, in a nutshell, if a real powerful, serious dog goes fora "live" bite and means business, one would either have to be: really, really fucking tough with high tolerance for pain - some people are like that, mentally challenged, have some really weird thrill issues or high on drugs to even think of engaging the dog and asking for more.
Very true!
Jim
by Slamdunc on 18 December 2009 - 15:12
Snajper,
Jim do you think your dog would do good in SCH now after so many real bites?
Yes, he would do fine in the bite work. He has genetically full hard grips and would score very high in the bite work. He will bite a sleeve if presented to him. However, as Adi described above he won't take too much crap from a decoy. He had a knack of also biting helpers in the shoulder in the tried to intimidate him. His hold and bark is also in the helper's face, he doesn't look at the sleeve, but focuses on the decoys eyes. The biggest problem would be the tracking.
Now how are you going to fix bark and hold with your dog? I am running into similar issue the dog is just too confident that I have the hardest time getting her to do bark and hold. I had number trainers helpers trying to help me with the problem but so far it's just hard to get her to do it. And we been not able to get her to do it consistently.
I am not going to fix the hold and bark. I just want him to bark when "turned on" not just stare and be ready to bite. Davren, summed him up pretty well, he stares and says "go ahead, make my day." And he waits for an opportunity, Sounds like you dog may have super high prey drive. Will she bark when the helper is further away? Does she stop barking when the helper is close or right in front of her? How old is she? You have probably tried this: back tying her on post and have the helper approach when she is barking, little stimulation. If she stops barking the helper stops or goes away, When she barks the helper moves closer and gives the bite when she is barking. You can have a second leash attached to a prong collar and give little light pops on the collar, this should stimulate her to bark. Build on this until the helper can walk up and your dog will bark consistently with the helper straight in front of the dog. I would do this before going into the blind for the hold and bark. I would progress into the field on a long line then into the blind on lead.
Some dogs that have super high prey will get overwhelmed when the decoy is close by the prey and focus or stare instead of barking. When they are so locked in prey they won't bark. I'll give you an analogy: When sprinters are at the starting line, in the "blocks" waiting for the starting pistol, their bodies are tense and muscles are ready to explode. They are intently focused waiting for that starters pistol to go off. A similar thing happens to high prey drive dogs, they tense up and wait to explode to catch the prey. They won't bark in this state. Let me know if this sounds like your dog, You can teach these dogs a very strong hold and bark, yet they may not bark after the out on the escape or after the courage test. As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though.
Jim
Jim do you think your dog would do good in SCH now after so many real bites?
Yes, he would do fine in the bite work. He has genetically full hard grips and would score very high in the bite work. He will bite a sleeve if presented to him. However, as Adi described above he won't take too much crap from a decoy. He had a knack of also biting helpers in the shoulder in the tried to intimidate him. His hold and bark is also in the helper's face, he doesn't look at the sleeve, but focuses on the decoys eyes. The biggest problem would be the tracking.
Now how are you going to fix bark and hold with your dog? I am running into similar issue the dog is just too confident that I have the hardest time getting her to do bark and hold. I had number trainers helpers trying to help me with the problem but so far it's just hard to get her to do it. And we been not able to get her to do it consistently.
I am not going to fix the hold and bark. I just want him to bark when "turned on" not just stare and be ready to bite. Davren, summed him up pretty well, he stares and says "go ahead, make my day." And he waits for an opportunity, Sounds like you dog may have super high prey drive. Will she bark when the helper is further away? Does she stop barking when the helper is close or right in front of her? How old is she? You have probably tried this: back tying her on post and have the helper approach when she is barking, little stimulation. If she stops barking the helper stops or goes away, When she barks the helper moves closer and gives the bite when she is barking. You can have a second leash attached to a prong collar and give little light pops on the collar, this should stimulate her to bark. Build on this until the helper can walk up and your dog will bark consistently with the helper straight in front of the dog. I would do this before going into the blind for the hold and bark. I would progress into the field on a long line then into the blind on lead.
Some dogs that have super high prey will get overwhelmed when the decoy is close by the prey and focus or stare instead of barking. When they are so locked in prey they won't bark. I'll give you an analogy: When sprinters are at the starting line, in the "blocks" waiting for the starting pistol, their bodies are tense and muscles are ready to explode. They are intently focused waiting for that starters pistol to go off. A similar thing happens to high prey drive dogs, they tense up and wait to explode to catch the prey. They won't bark in this state. Let me know if this sounds like your dog, You can teach these dogs a very strong hold and bark, yet they may not bark after the out on the escape or after the courage test. As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though.
Jim
by snajper69 on 18 December 2009 - 15:12
Will she bark when the helper is further away?
Yes
Does she stop barking when the helper is close or right in front of her?
Yes
How old is she?
According to my count she is 18 months.
"""You have probably tried this: back tying her on post and have the helper approach when she is barking, little stimulation. If she stops barking the helper stops or goes away, When she barks the helper moves closer and gives the bite when she is barking. You can have a second leash attached to a prong collar and give little light pops on the collar, this should stimulate her to bark. Build on this until the helper can walk up and your dog will bark consistently with the helper straight in front of the dog. I would do this before going into the blind for the hold and bark. I would progress into the field on a long line then into the blind on lead. """"
Yes we been doing it, its on and off.
Some dogs that have super high prey will get overwhelmed when the decoy is close by the prey and focus or stare instead of barking. When they are so locked in prey they won't bark. I'll give you an analogy: When sprinters are at the starting line, in the "blocks" waiting for the starting pistol, their bodies are tense and muscles are ready to explode. They are intently focused waiting for that starters pistol to go off. A similar thing happens to high prey drive dogs, they tense up and wait to explode to catch the prey. They won't bark in this state. Let me know if this sounds like your dog, You can teach these dogs a very strong hold and bark, yet they may not bark after the out on the escape or after the courage test. As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though.
Yes this sounds like her, she tends to be too intence.
"As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though." wasn't awere of that (even though I train with SCH people as well others my goal is not SCH titles, but I do like to train few of the parts of SCH rutine gives me something to do and helps evaluate the dog against some others).
Yes
Does she stop barking when the helper is close or right in front of her?
Yes
How old is she?
According to my count she is 18 months.
"""You have probably tried this: back tying her on post and have the helper approach when she is barking, little stimulation. If she stops barking the helper stops or goes away, When she barks the helper moves closer and gives the bite when she is barking. You can have a second leash attached to a prong collar and give little light pops on the collar, this should stimulate her to bark. Build on this until the helper can walk up and your dog will bark consistently with the helper straight in front of the dog. I would do this before going into the blind for the hold and bark. I would progress into the field on a long line then into the blind on lead. """"
Yes we been doing it, its on and off.
Some dogs that have super high prey will get overwhelmed when the decoy is close by the prey and focus or stare instead of barking. When they are so locked in prey they won't bark. I'll give you an analogy: When sprinters are at the starting line, in the "blocks" waiting for the starting pistol, their bodies are tense and muscles are ready to explode. They are intently focused waiting for that starters pistol to go off. A similar thing happens to high prey drive dogs, they tense up and wait to explode to catch the prey. They won't bark in this state. Let me know if this sounds like your dog, You can teach these dogs a very strong hold and bark, yet they may not bark after the out on the escape or after the courage test. As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though.
Yes this sounds like her, she tends to be too intence.
"As long as they are intense they will not lose points for this. The dog does not have to bark in the SchH guarding phase after the outs, it has to guard intensely though." wasn't awere of that (even though I train with SCH people as well others my goal is not SCH titles, but I do like to train few of the parts of SCH rutine gives me something to do and helps evaluate the dog against some others).
by snajper69 on 18 December 2009 - 15:12
All the helpers that I been talking too claimed it is caused by the fact that she is too confident, and from young any one that I been training with always said that bark and hold will be a issue with this dog.
by Slamdunc on 18 December 2009 - 16:12
Snajper,
All the helpers that I been talking too claimed it is caused by the fact that she is too confident, and from young any one that I been training with always said that bark and hold will be a issue with this dog.
I have seen some dogs that are so confident that they don't view people as a threat. You really have to push them to react. There is also the other extreme, which is when the dog ignores the decoy. I don't think that is your dog at all. It's hard to say with out seeing the dog, but if I were decoying for you dog I may push it into defense and see how she reacted. Have your decoys worked her in defense at all? I would not switch from prey to defense in the same set when working the dog. A dog like yours may need to be taken out of it's comfort zone a little. I have become a little leery posting too much about bite work or working dogs on this forum any more with the way the place has become lately. If you PM me, I'll go into more details.
Jim
All the helpers that I been talking too claimed it is caused by the fact that she is too confident, and from young any one that I been training with always said that bark and hold will be a issue with this dog.
I have seen some dogs that are so confident that they don't view people as a threat. You really have to push them to react. There is also the other extreme, which is when the dog ignores the decoy. I don't think that is your dog at all. It's hard to say with out seeing the dog, but if I were decoying for you dog I may push it into defense and see how she reacted. Have your decoys worked her in defense at all? I would not switch from prey to defense in the same set when working the dog. A dog like yours may need to be taken out of it's comfort zone a little. I have become a little leery posting too much about bite work or working dogs on this forum any more with the way the place has become lately. If you PM me, I'll go into more details.
Jim
by snajper69 on 18 December 2009 - 16:12
Thanks Jim I will PM you. Yeah this is exactly what we decided the next step to be to put some defense into her as I noticed she lacks that. She been worked too much in pray to my liking. I will PM you now as well send you a link to a more recent video. Any comment from you will be always appreciated. Thanks.
by Slamdunc on 18 December 2009 - 20:12
Hey Snajper,
I got your PM. First, I will say I really like your dog. She is really super. I will PM you my suggestions, FWIW. I will comment to you privately later. I don't want anything I say to be twisted or taken out of context; as that can happened around here especially lately.
Give me some time to think about your situation and I will reply. First, I don't see any problems with your dog that perhaps tweaking or changing your training approach wouldn't solve. The biggest problem I see with your dog is that she ......isn't mine.
Jim
I got your PM. First, I will say I really like your dog. She is really super. I will PM you my suggestions, FWIW. I will comment to you privately later. I don't want anything I say to be twisted or taken out of context; as that can happened around here especially lately.
Give me some time to think about your situation and I will reply. First, I don't see any problems with your dog that perhaps tweaking or changing your training approach wouldn't solve. The biggest problem I see with your dog is that she ......isn't mine.
Jim
by snajper69 on 18 December 2009 - 20:12
hearing this from someone who has an excellent dog as yours let me say complement can't get any better lol. Yes any sugestions will help. I always appreciate a good advice dose. And I agree people like to twist things or blow out of proprotion so I totaly understand you. Thanks.
by 4pack on 18 December 2009 - 23:12
Hey, no fair you two, I want to know what is being discussed. Screw the board!
by Prager on 19 December 2009 - 01:12
OK I have read it all and now I'll try to forget it and generate my own answer.
In Sport:
SchH is a highly structured sport. Within the frame of the Schutzhund trial and training there absolutely are dogs which can not be run out I do not care how intimidating the helper is. In PSA which is not as structured and scenarios vary and pressure is tremendous and as high as possible, there are dogs which absolutely will not run. The problem often is that people with dogs which are hard, since they do not fit into the frame and ability of the trainer, are not allowed into such club. Then you have there dogs which could be made to run.
In real life:
In real life protection there are two types of dogs which will react differently to escalating pressure.
1.Dog will get weaker with escalating pressure. They will run sooner or later.
2.Dog will get stronger with escalating pressure. His anger will increse with pressure. This type of the dog is not very popular in today society and even so is needed for some function it is generally not bred. Today PP dogs are mainly bred for gameness in a prey drive. In a prey drive dog is not presented with threat or does not recognize a threat. The dogs are not bred for courage but for drive as a substitute of courage. These dogs can be made run. But there are still dogs which are bred for courage and then such is supported by proper training. Such dog was for example Gero z Blatneskeho zamku, Balli Panta rei and Chuligan z PS and others. No matter what amount of pressure you would put on such dog, with more pressure and anger he woulr push back. There is no way that Gero would give up without being killed. That was his personality. Now most people do not need dogs like that and can not handle dogs like that. These are strong alpha dogs which are hard to train because they do not want to submit and want their way. But that is a dog which you may want next to you in extreme threat situation.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Gero
In Sport:
SchH is a highly structured sport. Within the frame of the Schutzhund trial and training there absolutely are dogs which can not be run out I do not care how intimidating the helper is. In PSA which is not as structured and scenarios vary and pressure is tremendous and as high as possible, there are dogs which absolutely will not run. The problem often is that people with dogs which are hard, since they do not fit into the frame and ability of the trainer, are not allowed into such club. Then you have there dogs which could be made to run.
In real life:
In real life protection there are two types of dogs which will react differently to escalating pressure.
1.Dog will get weaker with escalating pressure. They will run sooner or later.
2.Dog will get stronger with escalating pressure. His anger will increse with pressure. This type of the dog is not very popular in today society and even so is needed for some function it is generally not bred. Today PP dogs are mainly bred for gameness in a prey drive. In a prey drive dog is not presented with threat or does not recognize a threat. The dogs are not bred for courage but for drive as a substitute of courage. These dogs can be made run. But there are still dogs which are bred for courage and then such is supported by proper training. Such dog was for example Gero z Blatneskeho zamku, Balli Panta rei and Chuligan z PS and others. No matter what amount of pressure you would put on such dog, with more pressure and anger he woulr push back. There is no way that Gero would give up without being killed. That was his personality. Now most people do not need dogs like that and can not handle dogs like that. These are strong alpha dogs which are hard to train because they do not want to submit and want their way. But that is a dog which you may want next to you in extreme threat situation.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
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