Puppy Prices - Page 5

Hey Shelley,

You still need to send me that picture of Gabor from the WDA show that he was doing helper work (picture in the upper right corner of your post).

Thanks!
Sue

Sue- e-mail me for the pix.

RDH- Yes, I do have a "real" job these days. Fortunately I work from home about half the time. Unfortuantely it doesn't pay much, only enough to keep my dogs in food and bedding. I didn't used to have to work, made enough to get by with what I made training and what my husband brings in. The economy is killing my training business this year, so I may have to add a third part-time job.

SS

  ok , here is my take on breeding dogs! i choose to feed them a better diet, i.e. raw and grain free hi-grade kibble, not going to charge for that in my puppies, i'm choosing to send my dog out for titles, show rating, and koer, would love to do it myself but am deploying yet a 3rd time and he is definately better than i'll ever be! not going to charge puppy buyers for that either as it's my choice to do so and breed a dog that meets the standards! i see it as if you really love the breed, you will never make your money back! bitch has to have a c- section, not puppy buyers fault! bitch doesn't have litter? not anyone's fault! there are alot of variables, but i don't consider, food to feed them, vet bills, or travel or training expenses into the cost of puppies. as it is your choice to do all of this, i don't knock other's for buying titled dogs to breed, since they didn't title them, i don't knock those who don't title at all! that's their choice and it's what i fight for! the freedom to do so.! so all of you that come on here and want to talk about what other's do or don't do, that's your freedom, do i agree with your views, probably not, but hey that's my freedom! i have the right to believe that breeders should only be allowed 3 breeding bitches total, and a max of 2 studs! maybe then we might not have so many litters being produced, good, bad and crappy! maybe if some breeders actually know what their producing and not just ripping out litters of ''great'' puppies that can do anything, we would as a WHOLE quit ruining the best breed ever.
sincerely kenny

We are never going to agree on most of the above. If I can't recoup at least part of what I spend making the dogs I breed into dogs that are worth breeding, there will be no good prospects for my buyers to buy. What does that leave them?
It leaves them with a lot of potentially disappointing choices. I like to think the years and thousands I spent getting this experience and reputation is worth something!
SS

Thanks everbody for all the input and information. I really appreciate it. I also learned few things too reading all your posts. I am just trying to gather as much information and help as possible so when I do pick a puppy it'll be a good choice and the choice I was most comfortable with. I indeed have talked to breeders and I just did not feel comfortable either with their jacked up price, or their dogs and then sometimes I google their kennel and there is a lot of bad experiences that people have with them so I crossed them out right off the bat.

I live in Pennsylvania and I just realized Mrs. Strohl is from here too! She seems like a very knowledgable respectful breeder with a good reputation. I can tell you this though you won't find many breeders in PA like her. There is so many puppy mills and people breeding in their backyard and just mass producing puppies without checking the health or the temperament. It is terrible here because you hear so many bad things about Pennsylvania and puppy mills.

I talked to a kennel which is not from Pennsylvania and I wanted to know her goals, and what she looks in when she breeds dogs and their health. I also told with all due respect if I can ask the price of her puppies because the recession is pretty bad in some parts and I wanted to see if it will be around my budget. She told me it is 2,000USD and that the recession does not effect the dog price. I understand that but she did not have to come off like that towards me and I could smell a attitude so I was polite and said thank you for her help and time and information and that was it.

I just think some prices are ridiculous for puppies. I could understand if it was a titled young adult or a adult and it was good for breeding and had excellent scores but puppies?

I search day and night and search for information about the kennel and just try to find a good breeder with a fair price and that has a good reputation. But I sometimes can't tell it apart because it sometimes they sound shady and do not present with any kind of information. They do not give a contract, they do not ask me what kind of puppy I want or what I am looking for and if the puppy would fit my lifestyle. They just tell me the price and just want to sell me the dog. I do not want a puppy that'll get sick or has been bred wrong and then will be plagued with health issues and problems down the line! God forbid because once I have a dog I really bond with them and it is so hard to get rid of and I could nevr do that but I want my dog to have the most healthiest, happiest, and most comfortable life there is without any problems.

Thank you everybody for your input and information again! respect!

"How do I know paying $1000-$1500 that my puppy will be cut out for what I intended to buy it for?"

You cannot be 100% certain with stuff like that because puppies are a crapshoot.

This is a big topic, worthy of writing a book about, but I'll just type a bit here, from my perspective.

What you CAN do is stack the deck of cards in your favor, so you don't give the casino in Vegas all the advantage.

What does that mean?

It means this: if a father is a sch3 doga nd a mother is a sch3 dog and they had 4 litters before, average of 6 or 7 maybe 8 pups, that's about, say over the course of 5 or 6 years,  that's 30 or 4 puppies who are adults now.

Look what those puppies did, any sch titles, any police work,any search and rescue, any herding, BH at least? That will give you a clear indication that the parents are worthy of breeding and are able

Every litter of puppies has the stars, the good ones and the puppies that will not amount to a hil of beans, genetics or not. With good dogs, a litter is more or less kind of uniform with one or 2 odd ones not showing what they should. Bingo, 2 for pet homes, the rest to a suitable home that will do something with them.

That is not all of it, though. Look at the parents of the parents. Also titled, koered,etc.. etc... parents of the grand parents etc... etc... a lot to see there and compare.

Also,if the female is good,or if the father is exceptionaly good, they will be mated with other females e.g "stud fees" etc...

Poor Fero and Troll and Timmy Bosen Nachbarshaft were bred so much their balls were probably blue 24/7 for the rest of their lives,only pause is eat, sleep and train, ha ha.

Not only that. There is more...

Say, you zeroed in on a particular breeder, you chose the parents, bam the female is pregnant,  litter is promising ON PAPER, you give them your 300 bucks deposit and wait.

The puppies arrive. Wait 6 more weeks and go see them and observe. At 7 weeks do a Wendy Volhardt puppy aptitude test - the best thing that can answer your question from above that I quoted. Learn the test and learn how to administer is and learn how to glean useful  info from it.

Do that test again and again, if needed after 7 weeks and before 8 weeks, sometimes puppies are out of their elements and the results can be inconsistent. After doing the test on the whole litter 3 times the pattern HAS TO  emerge.

There is your puppy.

Shelley sorry to hear that. You spend a lot on your dogs. Yes, the economy is bad I'm hurting to but luckily for me I still live with my folks and save money to hopefully get into dental school. I understand it takes a lot to do good for your dogs and whelp a litter but does everyone do as much (spend)as you? I know a breeder in Chicago who produces TOP NOTCH ring dogs(malinois) and he never tells me that he spends too much on whelping a litter. He produces nice working dogs and even though he prices at $1500 he is always willing to negotiate something out so that both parties are happy.


KKR I'm siding with you because I feel the same way. I know everyone has their own opinions on this topic...what can you do? maybe if some breeders actually know what their producing and not just ripping out litters of ''great'' puppies that can do anything, we would as a WHOLE quit ruining the best breed ever.   AMEN WITH THAT!

ADi I like your Ideal but I'm looking for a gsd that it capable of doing French Ring (hopefully to ring 3) or PSA. Most GSD are all Schutzhund and a mixture of PSA here and there.

I was trained as an economist (now teach decision making) so I cannot help creating a price model from the data I have collected.  Unfortunately, my data is too spare to deliver these results with professional confidence.  But as Paul Krugman recently wrote, "In many markets, hype springs eternal."  Surely this is true for some breeders (but not all!)

BASE PRICE MODEL

Assume both parents are a-stamp or OFA.  No titles.  Otherwise, average German lines. $600.   If a parent only has preliminary hip xrays, subtract.

Now, lots of PLUS FACTORS.

For each BH or CD or TT or CGC, add $50.  So $700 for a pup with parents who have BHs, average lines, certified hips.  No koers, no competitive scores, no specialized proven talents.  (I think the market allows higher pricing than this right now but I do not know why.)  At least the temperaments were evaluated outside the kennel.

For each SchH title, of each parent, add $100.  (Typical SchH3 sire, SchH1 dam means add $400 ==> $1100.)
For each Koer, add $100.  Say one parent has been koered, so $1200.  It seems that an AKC CDX adds $50 and a UD adds $100.

For each SG, add another $100, but add $200 for a V, and $350 for a VA.  So if both parents are V, add another $400 ==>$1600 in this example.  I am not skilled at estimating the value of AKC show quality so I won't try to add that here.

For SG sport scores at SchH3, add $100, for V scores at SchH3, add $200.

Usually, buyers don't care about both conformation ratings AND sport scores, so some buyers add only one set of plus factors above. 

For specialized talents, e.g., FH, add $150.  For FH2, add $250.  This would mean, for example, that V Carol Arolser Holz SchH3 FH2 mated to a V SchH1 bitch should have puppies with average market price of $1850 (Shelley is currently UNDERPRICED) -- some worth more, some less.  Specialization can also be high quality obedience -- for example, I see, but not on this database, that pups whose parents are UDX dogs (top level in AKC) do warrant $200 per parent plus factors. OTCh titles, implying very high performance, is naturally more valuable.  Single purpose detection dogs are also quite valuable to certain buyers, and even green dogs with proven backgrounds in this area often get plus factors of up to $500.

This all assumes a basic warranty against hip and other medical/temperamental issues.

Color also matters in old Max's beloved "working" dog.  But he himself was not entirely innocent -- although in his defense he lived before even biologists understood basic genetics (despite Mendel) and so he had an excuse to muck up the whole white dog affair.  What a mess -- we lost those genes for no good reason.  Excellent well-conformed working dogs such as Shelley's may, if sable, not all sell for $1850 while the same puppy, if a plush b/r, might carry that price more easily.   Color has subjective plus factors.  Faded sable puppies of equal value seem to sell for a few hundred less than rich b/r puppies or dark black sable puppies. 

If the lines are of particular interest to a "strategic" buyer (someone who values the lines highly for personal, idiosyncratic reasons) plus factors can be added for subjective reasons.  We all like special dogs and we also have dogs who would do well to be mated to certain lines, so breeders are especially likely to add something here.   Some people add value to big DDR heads, for example.  Note: some breeders with unproven parents will naturally hype the lines instead of the parents.  It appears to me that the asking prices often reflect the lines as much as the parents, but

Got cut off.  There's more to the model, but I will refrain until requested.