Schutzhund trained family protector - Page 5

Bonding is always important.  Otherwise, the dog will only fend for oneself.

I think 10 dogs get the job done!  Honestly, just go back and read every post twice and it will give you an answer about two dogs. 

Bond for me is the most important aspect, I would go as far and said that female will fight harder for you than male, but that is just personal opinion. Sometimes you don't need a pack of dog's but a confident handler that will make all the difference, dog will respond differently with confident handler that he trust than with one that has no such attributes, keep in mind that dog's will feed the energy of it's handler or other dog's. In my opinion same goes when talking about the intruder, the more confident the intruder the harder it will be on a dog. I am deep believer that every dog has incredible senses and can sense a lot of different things from it's surrounding which many times will shape his respond. But this is just my opinion.

In the UK, civilians are not allowed to own pepper sprays let alone guns.

The police here don't have guns. Only recently have they been allowed CS. Tasers are exceptional.

A K9 or PPD might well be your last line of defense.

Wow great thread. Good posts Jim. I have a super strong dog and I would dare not bet on him coming to my rescue at home, until I trained for it. Hell I wont even dare take a stab at what he will do on the next scenario we try on the field. (where will he bite on his first runaway, will he bite the hidden, will he hit a static decoy?) You just never can say, until you do it. Thankfully he has never dissapointed but I'd never leave my life to chance.

 Hello misbeeb, first a question for you: I love the photo of your GSD, but what is the dog looking at in the window? 

Ok, you asked:

"Do you think the bonding (I hate that word) that comes from productive training, of ANY kind, has as much / anything to do with the dogs willingness to protect its' handler / home etc?"

Yes, I think bonding makes a huge difference.  If the dog is not a member of the pack why would it try to defend the pack.  A strong dog will defend itself rather quickly, but it won't defend strangers, why should it?  A weak dog will flee if given the chance.  With bonding comes trust and a positive realtionship.  I think a dog with a strong character and temperment will be better suited to defend it's pack (your family) with some bitework training as many have mentioned on this thread.  Between my dept and a neighboring city we have 6 dogs going through a K9 school.  5 GSD's and 1 Dutch Shepherd.  I GSD was just recently sent back to the vendor because it wasn't tough enough and had trouble working in buildings.  These dogs don't have any relationship with the handler when they first get them.  It is interesting to watch the progression in training as the handler develops a bond with the dog and they begin to work as a team. 

Do you think that a pack (maybe even just 2) is more likely to defend, perhaps because of the available back-up? 

Yes, most definately!  it's called "pack mentality", one dog will most certainly "feed" off the other dogs behavior.  It is even seen when dogs get loose and attack a person as a pack.  I agree with Don, 10 GSD's will really do the trick.  I have seen an insecure, weak GSD's bite someone because their pack leader a strong GSD was defending it's house.  Too bad for the cable guy who entered a friends house unannounced.  On it's own the weak dog would have ran for the hills.

Jim

Jim

I've also seen one dog bite/attack the other dog while the it was approaching a stranger. 

I've also seen a dog bite the owner instead of the stranger, so go figure.

Hi Jim, Buddy is dreaming of catching and eating the squirrel on the window ledge LOL, his patience and stillness would put most cats to shame!  Not a great photo as I used my mobile phone.

Thank you for your reply, it's much appreciated.

Hello Yvette, thanks. I think you and I have the same philosphy.  For me the dog is also an early warning device in the home.  On the street when tracking the dog is also an early warning system.  You watch the dog as you track to tell you when your getting real close to the bad guy.  Reading the dog is key and those indications mean everything. 

Getting to the point of GSD's for police or SchH, I agree with what Don and Ugly posted.  From what I have seen, especially lately I think a good SchH dog should be able to make a good police dog.  I don't mean a point dog that is working almost entirely in prey.  I mean a strong civil dog that likes to fight and brings the fight to the decoy.  Police dogs don't get judged on how full their bites are, but how hard the bite is and how much fight the dog has.  I have worked and seen many SchH dogs that bite full; but lack real pressure and committment in the fight.  They will score high points in a trial, that's ok for a sport dog.  For a police dog, I'll take one that bites 75 -85 % full but crushes the sleeve.  If the dog thinks it's in a real fight and is a little insecure but fights through he won't have a full bite but it could be a very hard bite.  1 in 30 SchH dogs for police work, perhaps.  1 in 100 regular dogs have what it would take, perhaps.

The SchH training can be a hinderance to police training when converting a dog to a Police Service Dog (PSD).  I know this from my own experience.  Which leads to the next point.  Our PD and neighboring agencies do not want soft patrol dogs, we want dogs that will take a bad guy down.  A couple of years ago we moved away from the hold and bark and it is no longer taught in the K9 school.  It is not needed for certification and can be dangerous for the dog and handler.  If I send my dog to bite, I want him to bite and hold.  From a liability standpoint, I have control of my dog and can down or recall him at a moments notice.  So, if we send our dogs we have decided it's a bite situation.  If I send my dog to apprehend a passive or non moving suspect, I don't want a hold and bark.  We are overcoming his earlier SchH training.  Automatic outs are another problem for me.  I don't want my dog to out just because the bad guy stops moving.  I'll out him when it's safe for us.  He has learned a "hold em" command and won't release while that command is given.

One of the GSD's we just bought would make a very good sport dog, he hits like a sledge hammer, has pure rage when agitated but always bites really really hard and full.  He will launch in the air to bite the shoulders ona bite suit and knock the decoy down.  My buddy has him and I really like that dog.  His conformation is terrible, from a pure show line perspective, but he has a certain charm.  I went to evaluate the dogs we bought and I was really struck by this dog.  He fires up in a heart beat with serious aggression, but I can appraoch and pet him whenever I want.  I can't  put my finger on it but he has a special charisma and way about him.