GSD FCI and AKC Breed Standard Comparison Chart - Page 5

JMHO--USA is about breeding and owning "sport dogs" (most of which are imported as competition dogs)--which may vary considerably from the FCI standard. Many of the dogs representing the United States on the World Team are not of breeding quality and do not conform to the breed standard (read: dog agression, handler agression, cryptorchids, structural faults, HD/ED, etc.).

Kim Your FIRST sentence in this thread:

"With the reason that one of the main reasons for USA to become exclusionary in their membership is that GSDCA and WDA do not have FCI breed standards, I actually went and read them for myself. There really are no differences."

The differences have been pointed out to you, by no less than an entire article written by Fred Lanting.  You want to discount or disregard what he says, that's certainly your perogative, and if you want to change the subject of the thread that is certainly your perogative.  What you have NOT done is proven the thesis of your essay in your original post.  In fact, the standards ARE different, the judging IS different and the breeders ARE different. 

Louise:   I am not going to get into a show vs working thing with you.  Suffice it to say the following statement you made regarding dogs varying considerably from the FCI standard is incorrect. 

"JMHO--USA is about breeding and owning "sport dogs" (most of which are imported as competition dogs)--which may vary considerably from the FCI standard. Many of the dogs representing USA on the World Team are not of breeding quality and do not conform to the breed standard (read: dog agression, handler agression, cryptorchids, structural faults, etc.)."

Really Louise?  One of the dogs on the UScA team is a KKL1.  Please tell me which of the 2 other dogs you know for a fact  has any strutural faults that would preclude him/her from obtaining at least a KKL2 to say nothing of a KKL1?

Louise:

Show me any top show line dog that represents the opening lines of the quote I posted.


The German Shepherd Dog must be even in temperament, well balanced, self assured, totally unself-conscious and, except when provoked, totally good natured. Added to that he must be attentive and easily trained. He must possess courage, combativity and toughness, so as to be a suitable companion, watch, guard, working and herding dog.

Any departure from the above described breed characteristics which influence working ability.

?

To me this is the descripition of the working German Shepherd Dog It isn,t or wasn,t ment to be a ring trotter but a working dog. It must be able to jump,run,physical enough to thwart a attack and run with the herd all day. strong in character and sound in mind and physical body. 


Sue:

         There is no arguement really there is no showline german shepherd look at the standard it isn,t set up for a show dog. so there is no argument

Bob, I could not agree more. 

I don,t believe that USA is all about sport dogs, Yes there is a strong sport dog element in USA but to say it,s the end all be of USA,s existance is wrong.

Thats the problem in a nut shell again interpatation, What this dog is supposed to be is more then a Schutzhund trail field animal who lives and breaths for the trial. The trial should only show the dogs trainabality as I,ve always said there should be Sport trials and Schutzhund test,s the sport trial is nothing but that and not a Breed Worhty test. The Schutzhund trial should be the Breed Worthniess test set to push the dog to show it,s true character which is what it is supposed to be judged for in the first place. 

Oh so now all dogs that KKL1 and are  working lines must  DEVIATE from the standard and thereby got their ratings by wink wink sympathetic judges?   Oh please any semblance of intelligence in this discussion has now gone completely out the window.  Louise you can't expect your blanket statements about the temperaments, conformation and structure of working line dogs to mean a thing, if you can't back it up.  I too know MANY dogs who have been on world teams.  While there certainly is one every once in a while who should not be bred, this is certainly not a problem running rampant in the working lines.  Kind of like certain top show line dogs that never should have received a G rating let alone a VA because they are scared of their own shadow.   Don't worry, I will protect the innocent and not name names.

Later folks, I'm going to schutzhund club to work my ugly little coyote. I wasn't planning on ever breeding him, but gosh Louise since apparently there is a conspiracy of judges willing to award "v"s and KKL1s to all those  undeserving working line dogs, maybe they will be happy to give me a "g" and a KKL2.   hahahha

Sue I think your fury is in your eyes again - yes I did post that the USA has stated that GSDCA and WDA does not use FCI standards - I did not say I agreed with USA's statment - quite the contrary, I posted the comparison showing they were almost identical. Probably not many making the accusation had ever read them.

No offense to Lanting, but on what success is he the authority?  I know he obvioulsy loves the breed and promotes it - but again with all due respect - who died and made him king of GSD's? He is obviously high IQ and writes so, but is what he is saying 100% go drink koolaid and beam me up in the nirvana of GSD holyier than thou - I think not.  He's a good guy eveidentially and loves GSD's and its his passion to write about them.

Regarding Louise's statements - how many Koerungs have you actually read Sue - the one similarity in all of the working line dogs is that the shoulder and elbow are not correct, angulation there is wrong and the back is too straight, not angulated enough. The also do not cover enough ground, stride is short  due to the elbow not being the standard.  Hell even Javir's says the same thing - he is a KKl 1 because he is recommended for breeding to bring some of his excellent working atributes to the breed - says nothing about conformation attributes - mostly when they put a working dog up for a KKL1 its due to bringing more fight and bite to the breed.  Usually they have won regionals or nationals or WUSV - many get upgraded from KKl2 because they were very successful as trial dogs.   This is one of Meyers crusades and I agree with it.  But even he is not bold enough to say that they have Breed Standard elbow angylation, correct proprotion and back angulation with correct proportion.  Read the damn Koercheins. Just because the have a KKl 1 or 2 does not mean they are perfect.  Some of the other items even on a 1 are rated present or needs to be more manifiested rather than prnounced - its all a mixed bag on all the dogs - there is no perfect dog. 

The dog that just won the BSP and was 2nd at the WUSV is a cryptoid - no KKl. He's a hell of a dog - he also is aggessive.  So?  He won.  Now do you see why people don't breed to the standard abosulute - its way too tempting when you end up with a dog like this not to see what you can get!  I would take the dog in heartbeat, one nut, civil and all.  He's got heart.  But he came from two dogs that fit the breed standard and were carrying the gene - so nothing is perfect.

Look, all dogs are not the breed standard and I sure would not like a world where there was a cloning going on - Sue you are way too sensitive - I said I liked your dog and you go flying off the handle.  Lots can be debated what really is a breed test - but for right now all we have are breed standards, AD, BH, minimun of SchH1, show rating and Koerung. 

This thread was to lay out that the two breed standards were not some crazy polar opposite or came from mars.  That the battle cry from USA that GSDCA should go straight to hell because of their not using the FCI standard, though in name, and due to actually comparing the content was invald.

I believe that the two standards are not substantively different.

The problem lies is the quality of the competition presented and the knowledge/impartiality of all judges.  Luckily, all dogs judged at WDA breed shows and surveys will be judged by the FCI standard--no need to fear the AKC standard.

Trouble is Lyle's lack of transparency to the USA membership. There was never an intended merger with USA by the WDA. The WDA only reached an agreement with the GSDCA in order to give the WDA greater independence of the GSDCA--so that the WDA could communicate directly with the SV (regarding paperwork, etc.) and bypass the bottleneck of the GSDCA's SV liaison. It would appear that, instead of creating closer ties, any agreement between the WDA and the GSDCA gives the WDA greater autonomy.
 

IOW, IMO, debating the AKC standard, its judges, and the ASS is based on paranoia.

Louise - I agree with you.