Question regarding BLACK Shepherds..... - Page 5

"Anyway the judge told me that black dogs should never be bred to another black dog, because of the possibility of producing white, liver or blue dogs."

D'you know molly, it's really interesting you've said this.

When I said black x black could produce white, blue, liver..... I didn't mean it was any more likely to produce them than any other standard colour mating... but, I remember reading somewhere, many years ago, that there was some genetic connection between black and white.  I've spoken to Willis about this and he doesn't know of anything, so not sure where it's come from. 

Anyway, I trawled through the UK Breed Records Supplements for colour registrations, and sure enough there was a higher frequency of blacks registered in litters that also contained whites.   Unfortunately the BRS doesn't give parents colour in the litter registrations, so I couldn't check on that without a lot more trawling.  I thought at the time, that it could possibly be explained by selection for unusual colours.... breeders who breed for white might also breed for black in the same bloodlines, but maybe there is something to it after all.

This possible black/white connections defies all knowledge we have so far on colour inheritance!

Chris:  anytime you decide your husband was wrong and want either one of those pups taken off your hands, I think there are oh I don't know a few hundred of us that will make a mad dash for your door.  All you have to do is whistle!  To be honest, I hope you keep them and fall as in love with the working set as you are with your wonderful high lines.  You will be an asset to our little group of working line aficionados. 

I am very sorry to hear about Paska, he was truly a magnificent animal who happened to be black too.

Some of this sounds fishy, honestly, and the judge who rated the black female as insufficient is a detriment to the breed.  I hope Trafalgar wades into this genetic mess and straigtens us out.  Help!

Let me add that if a black (who is homozygous black, as has been pointed out above) is bred to another dog (homozygous black, sable, or B/T) then the chances of an off-color (such as liver, blue, or, as was pointed out for the one in ten million case, lilac) are identical whatever the other dog's color.  The reason is not that hard to understand: the dilutes are on a separate gene locus, unrelated to whether the dog is black, b/t, sable.  So you have to carry a dilute on that locus -- both parents do -- to have a dilute.  If two blacks carrying the same dilute are bred, the dog is a solid dilute.  If a black carrying the dilute is bred to a b/t carrying it, the pups are likely to be blue (or liver) and tan.  BUT THE CHANCES OF GETTING A DILUTE ARE THE SAME, and not at all a function of black to black instead of black to something else.

If, empirically, it appears the dilutes turn up more often in black to black breedings, it is either because the dilutes are easier to detect there (and so many dilute b/t and sable dogs are not recognized as such) or, less likely, none of us know what the heck we are talking about.  But black to black breedings cannot create dilutes with a higher frequency unless I am missing something.

On the original question (why so few blacks?) let me pose a revealing analogy.  Blacks are recessive in our breed, dominant in most others.  In labradors, it is the yellow that is recessive.  Do you see many more black labs than yellows because yellows are recessive?  Do you see very, very few yellows because yellows are recessive?  Of course not.  You see plenty of yellow labs because people want them enough to breed for them.

In many breeds, the only color you ever see anymore is the recessive color!  (Think GOLDEN retriever whose original stock included bloodhounds -- b/t -- flat coats -- dominant solid black -- and tweedwater spaniel -- yellow.  They kept the recessive yellow and bred for it and easily got rid of the dominant colors.)  In fact, it is easiler to get rid of dominant genes than it is to get rid of recessive genes (for what I hope are obvious reasons).

You see fewer black gsd's because breeders want fewer of them, and that's the case largely because puppy buyers and judges (some apparently stupid) think the color is somehow defective or is less attractive.  The rarity of blacks has little to do with their genetic recessive quality.

And two black labradors can and often do have yellow pups.  And, of course, chocolate (what we call liver) pups.

For something more subtle in lab colors: never buy a yellow pup from a yellow x chocolate breeding without looking carefully at pigment, or you could end up with a yellow pup with a double dilute that shows up in washed out eye rims and points.  If you can work out why that's true, you are going to get a passing grade on the upcoming genetics quiz. 

MVF and pod, great posts!  

I never believed that old wifes tale about blacks being bred to blacks produces whites or dilutes. My last litter was intentionally bred for that color, and I really liked what I got. I spent months researching the pedigrees of both, looked at offspring etc. TIG, if you read this, Antje (breeder of Racoon's) exchanged a lot of views with me and educated me on a lot of things. She is a wealth of knowledge and I always appreciate her input. She and Karin Mueller, who unexpectedly and suddenly passed away this summer. You had mentioned Antje before. Anyway, it is true that blacks were shunned until recently. Now, they seem to be back in favor, in Germany as well (among the working people).

We all have our preferences and should, as long as it is within the standard. I like lots of black markings on my showlines and blacks, black sables and bi-colors in workinglines. For me, that makes our dogs look more impressive. So,  I have no use for washed out dogs, sables or black and tans/red. My question which really interests me is this: Can a black dog improve black markings on the other colors? I looked at the offspring of my black female in Germany this summer. She had two litters with V-Karn vom Fegelhof before coming here. In her first litter, there were two nice bi-colored sons with deep brown (tan) pigmentation and from her second litter, I saw a nice black daughter. A German "expert" in workinglines also assured me that there is plenty of deep pigment behind my litter's lines. It seems that pigment predictations in workinglines are, well unpredictable. A friend of mine in Germany has a nice Elute vd Mohnwiese daughter. Both parents have great pigment (mother is a showline sable) but her female is very light. She works great, but my friend was disappointed about her color. So, I am debating where to take my Chuckie, the black female next summer for another litter.  Luckily, I have a few months to research that.

Sue,

thanks for the offer, lol. IMy husband is in love with these two blackies, so he won't give them up. But he and I agreed that we will only keep them and use them for our breeding program if they can achieve the same things their mother and father did: V, KKL1. For a lot of workingline people, this is not important, but for us it is. It is our whole purpose of getting into these lines. A long rocky road ahead of us with our blackies!

Chris

 My question which really interests me is this: Can a black dog improve black markings on the other colors?

Chris, the answer to this is yes and no :-)

Intensity of pigment and extent of black pigment, is controlled mostly by so called modifing gene that are inherited independently of the Agouti  (sable tanpoint, black) colours so a black is no more likely, or less likely to carry good pigment than any other colour. 

In the GSD though, we also have mask, which does account for a lot of dark pigment distribution.  A heavy mask will give a completely black face with extending pigment down the legs, also often seen in Belgian Shepherds.  On a black & tan this would be obvious, but on a solid black, you wouldn't know it was there at all as the dog is already black.

So really, you need to look at dogs back in the pedigree, and siblings, to estimate whether a solid black dog is likely to improve pigment on other colours.

Very educational thread which I have enjoyed reading tremendously! I had studied color genetics somewhat when I was breeding Cockatiels, breeding for true albino.

My Bi Color bitch was bred to a black and tan, Both have a strong linage of blacks in their lines, Of 11 pups, 5 were solid black at birth, 1 with a small white spot on the chest and back toe,  The largest and smallest of the litter were solid black. Curious tho, Mom was ID'd on her registration as a black, but is actually a Bi Color with nicely pigmented penciling on her toes and a few scattered brown/red hairs on her ankles. I have noticed that the smallest female, black, if you look closely at the hair between her front toes, has a smattering of brownish/red hairs starting to develope. She is also most structered like her dam with the temperment of her dam. I believe she will turn out to be a Bi Color as she grows.
It is interesting to see which pups have taken body structure and temperment from which parent. The largest pup, solid black male and last born, has the body style of mom with the size and longer legs of dad. Since both parents have a high prey and toy drive, it is difficult for me to tell which parent he got his drives from.
It will be interesting to see how the pups grow as several have been placed in homes that allow me to see them on a regular basis and watch them grow. 3 of the pups went to homes that will potentially work them, 1 with Police work and 2 with SAR or Assistance. I intend to keep one, we will see.

Thank you for the genetics lesson :)

Therese

Therese, I do think recessive black can sometimes have some tan pigment, most often seen in the undercoat.  It would be very interesting to know if those really are bicolours or blacks.  There is a DNA gene test now available BTW ....... ;-)

This is a subtle question!

If my genetics is sound, the answer to improving pigment in a sable requires knowing a few things:

1. the black and tan gene is not completely recessive to the sable (agouti) gene, and has visual effects on the sable pattern.  You can see the saddle in the background.  The shoulder line appears in the same place in sables and black and tans, notably.

2. the amount of mask and the amount of black in the black and tan gene will be expressed impartially in the sable offspring.

3. in black dogs you cannot know the amount of masking and the amount of black because it is all covered by the double-black gene.

So

1. you can improve guard hair pigment (amount of black, not depth of red) in the sable offspring by paying attention to the pedigree of the mating -- but what you look for is not obvious.  There is no reason to think sable x black gives you more black pigment than sable x sable, even though that "seems right."

2. what you must do when choosing a mate for a sable dog is to either breed to a very dark b/t or bicolor, or to a black with very dark b/t, bicolor dogs close behind it.  Again, the amount of black in the black dog is not useful to know -- that's a different black.  The advantage of the black dog is that if your sable dog has a b/t parent and you want to avoid b/t pups, breeding your heterozygous sable to a black with very dark b/t or bi parents may give you more sables, and make them darker, too.  Sable to sable leads to at least 1/4 homozygous sable w/o the ghost saddle which usually darkens the body.

3. My thinking is that sable x bicolor is the most promising for a sable pattern with lots of black pigment in the guard hair.

Unlike some of our other genetic discussions, this one is more theoretical and I may be wrong.  But I think this is right, and can be used as a guide for breeders who want darker sables (and care enough about this to focus on color).

IF you are trying to improve the pigment of the background ground color -- what we mean by pigment in the b/t dogs, the depth of the red -- then an altogether different, but easier, approach is needed.  Now you just want the reddest possible background, and two red sables may do just as well as sable x other color.