Best e-collar for training? - Page 5

So what, all your training is purely motivational, no corrections what-so-ever?  Again, have you even felt a shock collar or are you assuming it is painful? 

Senta,

What is a theory is that you think it is cruel and you seem to think that compulsion in any form is not required in dog training.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Compulsion is not required?

Senta, I am sincere - I struggled very much before using the tool as I thought it was cruel and barbaric and learned some ways to use it that changed my mind.  The vast majority of training (I have a cadaver dog who must be able to work offlead in the wilderness) is motivaitonal.

Let us not talk about sport where the variables are controlled but real life working dogs.  And I understand you said earlier that police in German train without compusion.

If I have a dog with high prey drive who jumps a deer (this is a very real life situation where I live), there are two ways I know of to "break" the behavior. 

One way is to let the dog run the deer.  That usually works - dog is gone for hours, maybe a day, and if they don't get hit by a car or attacked by coyotes, they usually realize they are not going to catch the thing and the chase becomes no fun. 

Another way is to correct the behavior. Old school e collar proponents would zap the dog while in the chase.  The dog would need a tremendous shock because they were in drive.  I have seen this done, and actually seen the dog jump straight up in the air.  It can shut down a dog completely if it has a softer temperament and it is full of pain.  A gentler low stim technique is this one. http://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm.  The stim is so low that it is set http://www.loucastle.com/fit.htm

So back to the post, the author of the articles sells Tritronics and Dogtra but himself, recommened the Dogtra to me, and has very good prices, by the way.

Does your dog sense the deer and make the decision to lie down?  Or do you tell them to and they do?  I ask because of the situation where working offlead, the dog may be out of sight with only a bell collar to notify you of location.  My dog could be on a deer before I knew it and had a chance to give a down command. 

I  have seen t he dog in a situation after the ecollar training where the dog actually pauses (and you can see a different body language around prey animals AND another different body language around predators) , make a decision the chase is not worth it (so it seems) and get back to work, all with no external commands.  So to me it is worth it, particulary since I never felt my dog was "in pain" and the dog is not being pulled from work with a different command.

A working search dog IS a hunting dog - so you want to keep that hunting and prey behavior high and select such a dog that has those characteristics.  You  just want to be clear what is and is not ok to hunt. 

If we could all raise our dogs from puppies on a farm, i think we may not have as many of these problems.  I do agree desensitizng a young puppy to this is a better approach but not sure it works with all dogs.  Of my three, one is a total rapscallion who was never allowed to chase the cats as a puppy but I still cannot trust her and freshen her up with the ecollar from time to time (I get several months or more to a session) .  She has strong the entire hunting sequence including the kill. (we pulled the rooster our of her mouth just in time) .  She did catch and kill a pigeon as it was flying low to roost when staying at a friends house.  After the training she flushed a covey of quail and worked right through it.  When she did run into a group of 5 deer, that was just too much, but I was still able to call her off the chase (with no ecollar on her neck).   If I had not the ecollar with this dog, I am not sure she would be alive today. 

"Of course you have to correct the dog during train SchH and so on - but you can correct him without hard compulsion.
And the other question: yes, I saw dogs afflicted, very clamant, painful and brawly - at any rate reacting to the e-impulse . Not only one time - believe me. What ever this people has done with their dogs with the e-collar - the dogs have had a lot of pain, really. And believe me - I don´t want see this again."
(senta)

You have just proved my point.  You have never used an ecollar yourself or felt what it does, but you have seen it used incorrectly.  If you knew what you were talking about you would know an ecollar used correctly is not "hard compulsion".   Any tool when abused is cruel. Hell, a fur saver in strong hands or on a soft dog can deliver a hard correction.   The poster who used the example of the hammer said it perfectly.

Senta

Search and Rescue IS a form of "hunting".  It involves the whole hunt sequence.  It just defines the prey narrowly and disallows the chasing of other prey.  The use of the German Shepherd for this goes way back to the early days of the breed in WWI. No?  Such a dog is never allowed to hunt for game, BTW only people living or dead.

And herding work which had an element of protection work but protection was not only function.  IOW the GSD has always been a breed that can do a number of different things well.  Many do excel at Search and Rescue and detection work. 

I don't want a dog to look to me for guidance in this situation.  I do very little obedience other than what is needed to have a safe dog so as not to have a dog that is too clingy and dependant. I want a dog to have the confidence to make the right choice.  We are just working her with basic instincts.  I think the properly used e-collar allows the dog to make choices (as does a properly used clicker)