Longcoats and breeding - Page 5

Why did the SV eliminate long-stock coats from being eligible for a breed survey?

Marci, there is no such thing as a dog that produces "a lot of long coats". Either a dog carries that gene or it does not. It is possible for stock haired or plush coated carriers to produce an entire litter of coats if bred to another carrier or a coat. However, the odds are against that and if that same breeding were repeated it would most likely produce only a few coats, maybe none at all. It's like tossing a coin 100 times; odds are there will be 50 heads, 50 tails, but the first 10, even 15 tosses might yield all heads or all tails. Just because a stock hair/plush produces an entire litter of coats, it does not mean he or she carriers that gene any more "rampant" than a dog that only produces 1 or 2 in a litter. 

Blitzen... how about this example.???... say you have bred a bitch... got 1 out of eight slightly dysplastic... only 1 coated. I never again breed to the same male...

Next, on the second breeding with a different male... you got better... All good hips... but say 2 of 3 pups coated... i wont breed again to that male due to the LC issue... but one pup exhibits exceptional traits minus the Long Stock Hair... will you KEEP him for breeding in the future..??? for his traits..???

Are you asking if I'd breed a stock hair that had littermates that were coats? Of course if he were a good dog, was titled and breed surveyed.  I'd first have him tested to see if he were a LC carrier before I bred him and would keep those results in mind when I selected a mate for  him.  I am assuming both of his parents are stock hairs with breed surveys and titles.

Since you say  you will not use the same male again due to the long coat issue, would you breed your female again since she is equally responsible for your longcoats?

Just trying to improve native stock in our area... and I noticed that since most  Working-line guys in our country ( I'm overseas, but working for Verizon Online DSL...) are now experimenting with GERMALS... Belgian Mal X GSD...crosses...  The appearance of their new stock appear poor and lack  differentiation between MALE and FEMALES...lack secondary characteristics... nevertheless they have short and fine coats (with undercoat )... very low maintenance... just some poorly angulated...

I am now training with a long stock coat (one year old) and will only keep the pup for protection and research also...  I was informed to give it a year before deciding that  the pup is a long stock... or long coat... hoping to get this pup on the LGZS this coming Dec.2 with Heinz Scheerer from vom Hunhnegrab (former breed warden) gracing and judging the event...

Wish I could get a good and detailed Critique... that's the CLOSEST we could get  to being surveyed...

Blitz,

I am very skeptical about the existence of the long flat coated GSD that parts down the middle of the back like an Afghan. If they exist I have never seen a picture of one, if they exist I think they are rare. If that coat type really exists I could agree that it may not be desirable but I would like to see it, please give me a link. Furthermore I have seen no evidence that a long stock coat produce Irish Setter Shepherds. They produce more long-stock coats which there is absolutely nothing wrong with.

My references in my post are to the long-stock hair- long guard hairs, thick undercoat, often with pantaloons and tuffs behind the ears. This coat is very close to the coat of a wild wolf. They also function the same.  You will need to find a wolf pelt to compare with but they are very similar- happen to have access to a black timber wolf pelt, would put any black sable to shame.

I would agree that coat type is very complex as it is not simple recessive/dominant trait as some here seem to think. Modifiers are also not just on or off- short or long they produce variation. You see this variation all of the time in the breed. This complexity makes it impossible to breed this out of GSD's and why would you want to? Brings back uncomfortable memories of purity versus diversity.

4Pack-

not bull pucky, the stock-coat is more insulating plain and simple. As with the wolf and artic breeds the snow lands on the back and does not melt, very important. The dog shakes and its falls off. With my short coat shepherd the snow falls and the body heat melts the snow causing him to become wet. So what happens after your dogs are done playing on thin ice of a pond, having fun running around getting wet and panting because of the energy they are exerting? They go inside or they would die of hyperthermia. So after searching for 12 hours in the snow, it is better to have a dry dog.

So what about the long-stock coat, what happens when it gets wet? It takes longer to dry then a shorter coat, not much more but longer. The undercoat is very water proof, it is not a sponge and most importantly it still proves insulation. Wet wool will still keep you warm, wet cotton will kill you. I think the shepherds approved, after all the coated shepherd was used by them no, only recently not approved???? Also sheep herders use/used many different types of dogs, no not just GSD's, some with the same type as a long stock coat. In fact, hate to point this out, but I would say the GSD is probably the least used herding dog when it comes to sheep...

It is funny, coat type in other breeds do not suffer from this type of discrimination, in fact many hunting breeds find the utility of different coats useful. Maybe they are just sissies. 

Marci, there is no need to wait a year to determine if your dog is a long stock coat or a carrier. It can be done at any age with a simple cheek swab and a check for $58.00.

http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-long-hair-test.html

By the way Blitzen... here is our Siegerin for this year 2007.... A local bred bitch... A very masculine looking Sable bitch... The judge was  the breeder of Sgr. Zamp Thermodos... Mr. Albrecht Woerner... she topped several German imports... ( i think the judged liked the bitch overall... they should not judge by checking the details right.??? It's the total dog....)  The (PH)Sieger for 2007 is still a German import...Karol Hasenborn... cant argue... such a well-breed dog...

And this is what Working guys and gals do in the counter aside from MR or Mondio Ring...

Max, my first GSD had a long, soft coat with no undercoat. When he got wet, his coat sucked up water like sponge and his hair parted down the middle of his back. I have no  photos to show you and he's dead, so you'll have to take me at my word or not. There are plenty of photos of long, soft coated dogs on this site. They are not wet, so it's impossible to use them as examples of what wet a GSD  with a long, soft coat  would look like.

I have a friend who raised and studied captive wolves and have had occasion to see and feel their pelts on the living animal. Their guardhairs are of varying lengths and always very harsh. There is an abundance of an oily, thick undercoat during the winter months. If a wolf did have a long, soft coat, it would probalby not survive. Since only the alphas breed there are probably few long, soft coats produced in either a wild or a captive wolf colony.

Again, it's not the length of the coat, it's the softness and the lack of undercoat that is the problem. Still, it's a moot point since long coats with or without undercoat are DQ'd from the ring and not eligible for a breed  survey. Either one is breeding in accordance with the SV standard or one is not. To be honest I personally don't have a huge problem with knowledgable people using longcoats in their breeding programs. The danger I see is that is sends the wrong message to the novice who thinks if they can do it, then why can't I. They surf ths net looking at photos of longcoats and their progeny offered for sale and think that the SV is full of crap and that longcoats are descriminated against due to some stupid political decision. More pets are then produced and since the breed is in no emminent danger of extinction as far as I know, that is not a good thing.

If you google the breed standards for many hunting dogs, I'm pretty sure you will find that the dogs we see today do not have the coat that is called for in their respective breed standards. An American Cocker showline could never function in the field, neither could an Irish or an English or most other hunting breeds that no longer have the harsh outer coat and the thick undercoat called for. You have probably seen Irish, brittanies, cockers, etc that are dual registered and compete in field trials. They bear little resemblance to the show dogs we see at AKC shows. That applies to herding/tending breeds too. At one time the rough collie and shetland sheepdog had a much harsher and shaggier coat than today. The breeders changed that because the judges thought that the longer, softer coats were prettier and rewarded them in the show ring. Now every one thinks that that's the way they are supposed to look.

I agree about the modifiers, they express randomly and there is just no way to predict with any certainty how long the coats will be and if there will be any undercoat. The one thing you can count on is that breeding a coat to a coat will always produce all coats and breeding to or from a coat will alway produce all carriers. I think eliminating longcoats all together would be a very big mistake. Frankly, I wonder why more are not using the DNA test to help them make better breeding decisions.

Interesting photos, Marci. Thanks for sharing them. The Siegerin looks like a very substantial female. Did you like her?