Question for breeders on Mange - Page 5

Allergies indicate an unusally STRONG immune system - overactive immunity.  The body's immune system reacts to an allergen as a foreign body, and overreacts needlessly because it doesn't recognize it to be innocuous. 

Exactly!! However, by being overly-reactive, the immune system may still be defective. Most so-called "auto-immune" diseases are more correctly called "immune-mediated".

Although the literature states that demodex is not communicable from one dog to another, I have an anectotal report to the contrary. In my old schutzhund club, a young imported pup developed a very stubborn case of demodex (probably because the immune system had been "challenged" by too many rabies vaccinations--first in Germany and again in the US).

There were numerous club pups from different bloodlines, living in different homes, eating different diets--all using the same puppy tugs/sleeves in their protection training. At least, 7 dogs came down with demodex (definitely not sarcoptic mange)! Some club members even had dogs/pups at home (whose kennel mates had come to club training) who suddenly developed demodex.

Coincidentally, my own pup of the same age (3 months) never developed demodex--I used only my own protection equipment with him because he monopolized and would never give up his prey objects either on the field or after he returned to the car!! While he readily outted his toys and the dumbbell, he was never forced to out his precious sleeve (he spontaneously offered an inducive out when the helper locked up during  SchH1 training at about 19 months).

Allergies indicate an unusally STRONG immune system - overactive immunity.  The body's immune system reacts to an allergen as a foreign body, and overreacts needlessly because it doesn't recognize it to be innocuous. 

Exactly!! However, by being overly-reactive, the immune system may still be defective. Most so-called "auto-immune" diseases are more correctly called "immune-mediated".

Although the literature states that demodex is not communicable from one dog to another, I have an anectotal report to the contrary. In my old schutzhund club, a young imported pup developed a very stubborn case of demodex (probably because the immune system had been "challenged" by too many rabies vaccinations--first in Germany and again in the US).

There were numerous club pups from different bloodlines, living in different homes, eating different diets--all using the same puppy tugs/sleeves in their protection training. At least, 7 dogs came down with demodex (definitely not sarcoptic mange)! Some club members even had dogs/pups at home (whose kennel mates had come to club training) who suddenly developed demodex.

Coincidentally, my own pup of the same age (3 months) never developed demodex--I used only my own protection equipment with him because he monopolized and would never give up his prey objects either on the field or after he returned to the car!! While he readily outted his toys and the dumbbell, he was never forced to out his precious sleeve (he spontaneously offered an inducive out when the helper locked up during  SchH1 training at about 19 months).

Thank you trailrider.  I will google it.  I am always open to finding a good quality silver and the only way to truly know is by other's experiences with it.  Thank you for the recommendation.

Louise, in your opinion, what percentage of dog and/or human population do you think are currently living with a defective immune system?  In my personal life circles, I have I would say about 50% of my family, friends or acquaintances who suffer in one way or another with defective immune systems; from lupus to rheumatiod arthritis, lymphoma has also taken several of my friends.

Do you think the tugs/sleeves were carrying the mange mite or a viral type organism that may have caused immune issues?

Louise that is interesting. If you might have read my post about 3 of my dogs getting demodex some years back as well as my helpers Rotts getting it too. We used the same sleeve and pup tugs with these dogs. I looked up the records on these passed dogs and as I suspected I only wrote down worming and shots. I wish I could remember the whole scenerio better.

Louise, in your opinion, what percentage of dog and/or human population do you think are currently living with a defective immune system? 

I have no idea about percentages. However, IMO, many immune system dysfunctions may becaused by challenging immune systems (especially puppies who are immuno-incompetent) too frequently with polyvalent MLV vaccines, internal and external toxins (including environmental ones), commercial dog foods, etc.

When I have pups, I vaccinate them only for parvo and distemper (sometimes given in a combination) usually at 8, 12, and 16 weeks--with a booster a year later. I tend not vaccinate my adults after their first booster. I try to postpone rabies vaccines until after 12 months. I often do not worm puppies (unless they look wormy--or have a positive fecal test--which I can perform at home with my own microscope)---and never worm adults (especially not bitches before breeding) routinely because adults generally establish their own immunity to worms (fortunately, I've never had dogs with coccidia, whips, or hooks).

Because I've lived within the same 20 mile radius for over 20 years, I do not have my dogs on heartworm prophylaxis because there appears to be no "reservoir for infection" in this locale. I do not treat the house or yard for fleas--nor do I routinely treat the dogs with internal or external flea preventatives. On the very rare occasion that a dog picks up a flea at park/training or from a neighbor dog, I may resort to a flea bath and/or use spray/spot treatments. Only if several dogs appear to have fleas do I bomb the house or treat the yard for fleas (only twice since I've lived in my present house for the last 14 years).

I also don't use a lot of products with disinfective, anti-viral, bacteriostatic, or bacteriocidal properties because I would prefer that my dogs have minor exposure to disease causing organisms in order that they may establish they own primary immunity.

I had to treat one dog for Giardia when he came back from training in Germany with a heavy load of parasites. My now 11-year-old bitch came from her breeder with a load of tapeworms and was wormed with an herbal product when she was about 6-7 months old. No further problems with either of these dogs.

All in all, my dogs are extremely healthy, youthful, and thrive on their primarily raw diet.

I've never heard of demodex being contagious, but I wouldn't argue against that. Not everything in nature happens according to the books .

Dogs with allergies do not have "normal" immune systems.  In the big picture it really doesn't matter if their immune systems are too highly tuned or too weak. The bottom line is - these dogs cannot recognize an allergen and cannot produce antibodies against them. They are immune cripples and will often develop other autoimmune related/mediated diseases as they age.

My first GSD is a primary example of a dog that was an immune cripple. Inhalation allergies as a young dog, diagnosed via skin testing by the best veterinary dermatologist in the east.  At 4 years this dog developed a chronic bacterial sinusitis, not a common disease in the dog world. He had surgeries, biopsies, cultures and years of antibiotics, but could not fight off this horrible disease.  He sneezed mucous and blood 24/7 and we got used to always carrying a towel everywhere we went. He was a very social dog, but we had to deprive him of his fondest desire - being petted and loved by everyone he saw. At 7 he came down with lymphosarcoma, a form of leukemia. In spite of extensive chemo using the University of PA's state-of-the-art protocal, I had to help my beautiful beloved boy to the bridge when he was only 7 1/2 years old. I'm not sure I will ever get over his loss. Was it  due to too many vacs? Possibly? Genetics? Maybe, there is a history of lymphosarcoma in his pedigree. All I know is there is no way I would ever breed from any dog that has allergies or any other conditions/diseases that are indicative of a abnormal immune system. It's just not right to bring dogs into this world when the deck is stacked against their having a healthy happy life.

Vet told the owner the dog will need to be on medicine its entire life and if this medicine did not work the dog might need to be put down due to compromised immune system.

Getting back to the thread stated by GSDfan about whether her 15-month-old bitch and her dam should be spayed, I say BS! We all know that all dogs (and people, too--according to a human dermatology specialist friend)  carry demodex on their skin. The mites only proliferate during times of stress or when the immune system is otherwise compromised--this is when the condition becomes clinical and pathological.

In my old schutzhund club, a young imported pup developed a very stubborn case of demodex (probably because the immune system had been "challenged" by too many rabies vaccinations--first in Germany and again in the US).

FYI the young puppy bitch (who is now titled and breed surveyed) discussed above never had another bout of demodex. No pups in any of her litters have had demodex--to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you Louise, I read into your posts much wisdom.  I have always been weary of over vaccinating my pets and have asked the vets literally "out of all the vaccines you are trying to sell me, exactly which ones have you treated diseases for in this area in the last 10 years" and then I ask for only those vaccines.  I also continuously seek out the most natural, wholesome diets I can for my dogs (my husband cringes at their food bills .  But living in S Florida, fleas, ticks and heartworms are a very big concern.  Any suggestions on alternatives other than the norm.  I do supplement dietarily with Collodial Silver, Aloe, yogurt and Omega 3 & 6.  I have been trying Diatemaceous Earth for ticks/fleas with awesome success, but mosquitos here can sound like jetliners and heartworms are very prevalent.

Also, would you consider that my girl with the yeast infection in her ears (which came with her when I got her) would be considered an immune system problem?  I am getting the sense that some think she should not be reproducing because of this.  She checked negative for demodex when I took her in recently for hair thinning and a rash on her chest.  The rash we now believe was caused to chlorine levels in the pool as we just recently moved back into our home that has one (which is hard to keep her out of) and the pool needed extra shocking from being away for awhile.  She also just whelped a litter of pups and the vet believed the combo of all things gave her the stress.  She is doing great now that the yeast infection is cleared up.

My vet now will only vaccinate for Rabies once every 3 years. 

clewsk9s,

My sister lived in Florida--so I know all about fleas. My observation  is that a dog with clean, healthy skin on a BARF (such as I discussed in another thread) doesn't seem to attract fleas. When I mix up a spay bottle (a liter) of dilute shampoo (I routinely use Eqyss Micro-Tek shampoo), I add one capful of tea tree oil and one capsule of essential oil of lavender to the solution. These oils have properties that kill and repel fleas.

On the very rare occasion that a dog picks up a flea at park/training or from a neighbor dog, I may resort to a flea bath and/or use spray/spot treatments. Only if several dogs appear to have fleas do I bomb the house or treat the yard for fleas (only twice since I've lived in my present house for the last 14 years).

When absolutely necessary for fleas, I use Bio-Spot flea shampoo/spray--sometime the Bio-spot systemic treatment applied to the skin along the back. When I really want "big guns", I may bomb the house and treat the yard with permethrin spay.

If I lived in a heartworm endemic area, I don't know what I would do. For alternatives, I can refer you to a book by veterinarian Richard Pitcairn: Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats. I know of people who do not use heartworm prophylasis who periodically run heartworm antigen blood test to detect the presence for the presence of adult heartworms. If there are no adult heart worms, treatment for the immature stages is relatively simple--not costly or potentially life threatening--using diethylcarbamazine (the old daily Filarobits).

Yeast infections are not uncommon in the ears of GSD's. I don't consider it an immune system problem--possibly a "vaccinosis" or the result of stress. With your girl, I suspect that she gets water in her ears from frequenting your pool and not having her ears dried out. I use Eqyss Micro-Tek spray for routinely cleaning ears with cotton balls. Only in rare occasions do the dogs need to have their ears treated with Oto-max

The rash on her chest is more than likely Staph pyoderma because her coat may remain damp near the skin from spending so much time in the pool--this provides an excellent environment for the replication of bacteria. You can search the database for threads (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/123681.html) where I have discussed Staph pyoderm and its treatment.

Awesome advice Louise, the kind you usually pay big bucks for down here.  We don't seem to get flea problems indoors and have used Borox in the past on carpets and are using the Diatemaceous Earth outdoors in the yard areas.  Tea Tree Oil I never thought about using but is an excellent suggestion.  I have been using the Bio-Spot shampoo on her and am drying her ears out after swimming with a cotton ball but will get the Micro-Tek spray you suggested.  I believe I had caused further problems to her ears as I had been advised by our prior vet that she had ear mites and to treat with K7 which only irritated her ears more.  We have a great gsd vet now who is very knowledgeable and open minded to holistic alternatives.

Again, thankyou.  Your responses are extremely helpful and are why I joined the database to start with.